Hi fanatics,
It was 2017 when I posted “Beyond the Epos es22…” and I still haven’t chosen my Troels G. speaker kit! It would be very good to get some fresh advice on my 2021 WAF* approved shortlist of 3 (*N.B. I have permission to build one kit only).
I listen to all genres except organ music and have no plan for subs. Insight into musical interplay/intent/nuance is much more important to me than HT, but obviously, reasonable quality bass is a prerequisite.
Room: 25m2 – two doorways, always open, one at the far end from the speakers and a wider one between them. Speaker placement in free space, up to 150cm from side walls and up to 85cm from front face of speakers to the wall behind them.
Origin Live Resolution Mk2/Encounter Mk3/ Dynavector 10x5
CDX/Pardoe XPS
Modded NAC72/ Avondale S101 80/90 watts, with NCC220 modules coming soon.
es22 speakers - reluctant attenuation of volume for some vocals, with CDX.
DTQWT single “l2” (level 2) 2,400 euro
Used by TG for 2 years in his 25m2 living space.
Owners report listening position relatively uncritical.
TG’ s suggestion of up to 40cm from rear of speaker to wall easily achieved.
Offers scale and quality lower frequencies.
High efficiency brings rewards, even with solid state?
Will it sound as transparent as best of the rest?
Money spent on high efficiency design components for DTQWT wasted, because less expensive/efficient designs, eg Ekta, can offer similar virtues, given 90 watts of good quality A/B SS?
Ekta Mk11 (Level 2) approx 1,600 ero
TG comments on wide and deep soundstage, comparable with ATS4, even at lower levels (an important aspect re my CDX player)
He claims 38hz @F3 … might this be good enough for most listening?
How much space needed between speaker and wall?
TG also claims that size matters, expense of ‘Illuminator’ units given limits of 7” woofer?
Faital 3W (Be level 2) 1,450 euros
Appears very good vfm, even with Beryllium tweeter
Size of woofer
Can rock
Drive units made in my country of residence!
Risk of overloading room with 10” woofer in bass reflex designs?
How much space required between speaker and wall? How critical is the listening position?
Mid range/sound stage able to compete with Ekta and DTQWT?
At limits of WAF - needs exquisite veneer job/and beautiful, black stands!
(Also considered 761 and the somewhat ungainly, but relatively inexpensive 861. Troels enthuses about good measurements, with this design… but zero feedback from any owners. I’m puzzled by the lightweight nature of these constructions, compared to e.g. the massively braced Ekta, Do these 2.5 Ways offer ‘balance’, or a Jack of all trades compromise to the mid range?)
It was 2017 when I posted “Beyond the Epos es22…” and I still haven’t chosen my Troels G. speaker kit! It would be very good to get some fresh advice on my 2021 WAF* approved shortlist of 3 (*N.B. I have permission to build one kit only).
I listen to all genres except organ music and have no plan for subs. Insight into musical interplay/intent/nuance is much more important to me than HT, but obviously, reasonable quality bass is a prerequisite.
Room: 25m2 – two doorways, always open, one at the far end from the speakers and a wider one between them. Speaker placement in free space, up to 150cm from side walls and up to 85cm from front face of speakers to the wall behind them.
Origin Live Resolution Mk2/Encounter Mk3/ Dynavector 10x5
CDX/Pardoe XPS
Modded NAC72/ Avondale S101 80/90 watts, with NCC220 modules coming soon.
es22 speakers - reluctant attenuation of volume for some vocals, with CDX.
DTQWT single “l2” (level 2) 2,400 euro
Used by TG for 2 years in his 25m2 living space.
Owners report listening position relatively uncritical.
TG’ s suggestion of up to 40cm from rear of speaker to wall easily achieved.
Offers scale and quality lower frequencies.
High efficiency brings rewards, even with solid state?
Will it sound as transparent as best of the rest?
Money spent on high efficiency design components for DTQWT wasted, because less expensive/efficient designs, eg Ekta, can offer similar virtues, given 90 watts of good quality A/B SS?
Ekta Mk11 (Level 2) approx 1,600 ero
TG comments on wide and deep soundstage, comparable with ATS4, even at lower levels (an important aspect re my CDX player)
He claims 38hz @F3 … might this be good enough for most listening?
How much space needed between speaker and wall?
TG also claims that size matters, expense of ‘Illuminator’ units given limits of 7” woofer?
Faital 3W (Be level 2) 1,450 euros
Appears very good vfm, even with Beryllium tweeter
Size of woofer
Can rock
Drive units made in my country of residence!
Risk of overloading room with 10” woofer in bass reflex designs?
How much space required between speaker and wall? How critical is the listening position?
Mid range/sound stage able to compete with Ekta and DTQWT?
At limits of WAF - needs exquisite veneer job/and beautiful, black stands!
(Also considered 761 and the somewhat ungainly, but relatively inexpensive 861. Troels enthuses about good measurements, with this design… but zero feedback from any owners. I’m puzzled by the lightweight nature of these constructions, compared to e.g. the massively braced Ekta, Do these 2.5 Ways offer ‘balance’, or a Jack of all trades compromise to the mid range?)
DTQWT - too big, complex to build, impractical for small room
Ekta - best imaging, woofer too small, elegant
Faital 3W - best compromise, but mid is too big for optimum imaging (depends how you listen)
- 'Risk of overloading room' - just turn it down
'space required between speaker and wall' - independent of design, nearly all speakers sound better out in the room
Ekta - best imaging, woofer too small, elegant
Faital 3W - best compromise, but mid is too big for optimum imaging (depends how you listen)
- 'Risk of overloading room' - just turn it down
'space required between speaker and wall' - independent of design, nearly all speakers sound better out in the room
My 2 ct? If you are not able to get the speakers spaced about 1m from any wall (except the floor), you'd have to reconsider your options.
The DTQWT and the Faital will be bass-heavy when placed near the front wall, the Ekta probably too. Next to that, particularly the Ekta won't give you good imaging because that 4" mid is radiating 180 degrees all the way and that will give you an overload of early reflections from walls. Gravesen actually has a design meant for wall/corner placement (although I don't consider that the best option).
If you have the space to put the speakers out from the walls, I'd leave the Faital and the DTQWT out. Not exactly elegant and probably not the top performers on mid-to high frequencies. Unless you turn the volume up loud.
The DTQWT and the Faital will be bass-heavy when placed near the front wall, the Ekta probably too. Next to that, particularly the Ekta won't give you good imaging because that 4" mid is radiating 180 degrees all the way and that will give you an overload of early reflections from walls. Gravesen actually has a design meant for wall/corner placement (although I don't consider that the best option).
If you have the space to put the speakers out from the walls, I'd leave the Faital and the DTQWT out. Not exactly elegant and probably not the top performers on mid-to high frequencies. Unless you turn the volume up loud.
If a TG design has to be, for your room I strongly prefer the Ekta Grande (with Discovery tweeter) or even the Seas 3-Way Classic Mk1 over all of your choices. For the Ekta Grande, being an open design, I'd opt for a sort of Level 3 crossover getting rid of all the nonsense expensive components and replacing them with appropriate ones (air core vs wax coils, cross cap vs Superior Z-Cap).
Ralf
Ralf
Faital 3WC... I owned the 15" version. Very good but limited vertical soundstage due to position of tweeter. Also supports PeteMcK comment.
I like the look of the new SEAS CNO-4... but it's a lot of dough + time mind.
I like the look of the new SEAS CNO-4... but it's a lot of dough + time mind.
I have a similar dilemma, which open design to build and I alos have room placement issues i.e. closer to the back wall than ideal. One option if you have limited room around the speakers could be what I am looking at -
Troels Gravesen SBA 761 - 2.5 way Satori MW19P-8, MW16P-8 and TW29RN-B-8. I have done a quick WINISD check and it loooks like you can remove the downward firing port and replace it with two SB16PFCR paper passive radiators on the front baffle. Graph attached is for the MW19P-8, all curves are in a 28.1 litre box, Vented is green with port dimension as per the SBA761 design, Closed/sealed is Blue, PR with no additional mass is orange and PR with 15g additional mass is in pink. There is room on the front baffle to mount the two PRs under the MW19P-8 driver.
I think this may work quite well for my situation but obviously you will have to do your own due diligence.
Troels Gravesen SBA 761 - 2.5 way Satori MW19P-8, MW16P-8 and TW29RN-B-8. I have done a quick WINISD check and it loooks like you can remove the downward firing port and replace it with two SB16PFCR paper passive radiators on the front baffle. Graph attached is for the MW19P-8, all curves are in a 28.1 litre box, Vented is green with port dimension as per the SBA761 design, Closed/sealed is Blue, PR with no additional mass is orange and PR with 15g additional mass is in pink. There is room on the front baffle to mount the two PRs under the MW19P-8 driver.
I think this may work quite well for my situation but obviously you will have to do your own due diligence.
Attachments
Being a full 6dB baffle step compensation design, the 2.5 way is the worst design you can choose if the placement doesn't permit to have the speakers really away from walls.
What you change with bass reflex/closed/PR is only the sub 100 Hz rolloff.
Ralf
What you change with bass reflex/closed/PR is only the sub 100 Hz rolloff.
Ralf
Many thanks to all above who have taken the trouble to read my overlong question! It all helps to build a picture and a sense of direction.
stretchneck and giralfino
-comment on vertical dispersion confirms what concerned me about the Faital. There's always going to be some loss, off axis, I suppose it's more about how much. See my comment on soundstage below.
-the new CNO4? me too! but, as you say, the cost. Ekta Grande? I took another look and to my surprise, 'Grande' doesn't mean enormously tall as I had assumed, so that's interesting and I'll look further. Linesource would approve of the baffle design I believe - nice to hear from you again btw! Troels seem to have relatively few 3 way/double woofer designs compared e.g. with Rick Craig. Presumably, wall reflection issues don't disappear with these designs though?
PeteMcK and markbakk
The DTQWTs as objects in the room are ok with us because their actual footprint isn't a giant step from our es22s and I actually like their depth/proportions. However, their look in our room was predicated on TG's advice that they only need up to 35cm from rear face to the wall! How come he advises this then? The es22s are placed 82cm, front face of drivers to the wall and 150cm from side walls, as recommended by their designer, which leaves a rather unsightly gap as we walk past and between them through to the kitchen (they even, arguably, look a bit puny). There's no hard, flat furniture surfaces close by, but there are some upholstered surfaces close to nearby walls, maybe a wall hung, decorative textile would help? (It's a living room, not a studio - I wish!) The comment about the mid to highs of Faital and DTQWT are extremely useful though and again they confirm what I have been able to glean thus far.
Room and sound stage and it "depends on how you listen"
Having only ever listened to my music through es22s for more years than i can recall. I'm not in a position to judge what my own speakers do compared with the new.
If I listen at the apex of an equilateral triangle to them, I get a sharply defined stage and a very good mid range. There's depth behind the speakers and width beyond them, performers are clearly positioned ... and bass can feel a tad absent! It's not and can't be an armchair position and engaging with the rather tangible 'stage/image' can distract me from just engaging with the music - maybe it's the relative absence of the deeper LF
Mostly, I listen further away, closer to the opposite wall with my back to the speakers, at my desk. I lose some stage definition, but this bigger, more diffuse and spacious sound' (room reflections?) is actually rather pleasant. quite 'heady' with some music (e.g. Emmy Lou Harris - 'Wrecking Ball') it gives appropriate weight to grand piano, some air around the double bass and some LF underpinning for the rockier stuff.
I admit to being perplexed about 1m distance from wall. The best I can do is 85cm from front face of drivers to the wall behind and 150cm from side walls. Can I just check - less than 1m for the Ekta means it's a bad choice because it's particular mid range strengths won't be realised and all three might have issues with the woofer? (I'm not overly keen on TG corner speakers either) I'm not sure where to go from there! Does the waveguide on the DTQWT mean less of a problem from room reflections for upper mid? If there are other, less problematic, speakers, not on my list then I'd be interested to hear, but I don't have the motivation, or the competence, or the gear to be sensible and do room tests or EQ or DSP.
stretchneck and giralfino
-comment on vertical dispersion confirms what concerned me about the Faital. There's always going to be some loss, off axis, I suppose it's more about how much. See my comment on soundstage below.
-the new CNO4? me too! but, as you say, the cost. Ekta Grande? I took another look and to my surprise, 'Grande' doesn't mean enormously tall as I had assumed, so that's interesting and I'll look further. Linesource would approve of the baffle design I believe - nice to hear from you again btw! Troels seem to have relatively few 3 way/double woofer designs compared e.g. with Rick Craig. Presumably, wall reflection issues don't disappear with these designs though?
PeteMcK and markbakk
The DTQWTs as objects in the room are ok with us because their actual footprint isn't a giant step from our es22s and I actually like their depth/proportions. However, their look in our room was predicated on TG's advice that they only need up to 35cm from rear face to the wall! How come he advises this then? The es22s are placed 82cm, front face of drivers to the wall and 150cm from side walls, as recommended by their designer, which leaves a rather unsightly gap as we walk past and between them through to the kitchen (they even, arguably, look a bit puny). There's no hard, flat furniture surfaces close by, but there are some upholstered surfaces close to nearby walls, maybe a wall hung, decorative textile would help? (It's a living room, not a studio - I wish!) The comment about the mid to highs of Faital and DTQWT are extremely useful though and again they confirm what I have been able to glean thus far.
Room and sound stage and it "depends on how you listen"
Having only ever listened to my music through es22s for more years than i can recall. I'm not in a position to judge what my own speakers do compared with the new.
If I listen at the apex of an equilateral triangle to them, I get a sharply defined stage and a very good mid range. There's depth behind the speakers and width beyond them, performers are clearly positioned ... and bass can feel a tad absent! It's not and can't be an armchair position and engaging with the rather tangible 'stage/image' can distract me from just engaging with the music - maybe it's the relative absence of the deeper LF
Mostly, I listen further away, closer to the opposite wall with my back to the speakers, at my desk. I lose some stage definition, but this bigger, more diffuse and spacious sound' (room reflections?) is actually rather pleasant. quite 'heady' with some music (e.g. Emmy Lou Harris - 'Wrecking Ball') it gives appropriate weight to grand piano, some air around the double bass and some LF underpinning for the rockier stuff.
I admit to being perplexed about 1m distance from wall. The best I can do is 85cm from front face of drivers to the wall behind and 150cm from side walls. Can I just check - less than 1m for the Ekta means it's a bad choice because it's particular mid range strengths won't be realised and all three might have issues with the woofer? (I'm not overly keen on TG corner speakers either) I'm not sure where to go from there! Does the waveguide on the DTQWT mean less of a problem from room reflections for upper mid? If there are other, less problematic, speakers, not on my list then I'd be interested to hear, but I don't have the motivation, or the competence, or the gear to be sensible and do room tests or EQ or DSP.
FYI Faital 3W did pay well with my 25m2 room... large drivers seemed not to excite room modes (no boom whatsover). However, as I say, it had limited soundstage, and that'd why I sold it on.
"FYI Faital 3W did pay well with my 25m2 room... large drivers seemed not to excite room modes (no boom whatsover). However, as I say, it had limited soundstage, and that'd why I sold it on."
- Very helpful, thanks stretchneck. What did you replace them with?
- Very helpful, thanks stretchneck. What did you replace them with?
Last edited:
Linkwitz LX521 - pain in the *** because they need minimum of 6 channels of amplification, but nothing else comes close. I have them on trolley wheels to bring them into the room when I want to listen to music.
I would much prefer a simple pair of 3 way speakers with passive crossover (I did find troels passive crossover to sound very transparent) , so I could just use a regular stereo amplifier, but I haven't found anything that beats LX521.
LX mini are also great, but they benefit hugely from open baffle subs to go with them.
I would much prefer a simple pair of 3 way speakers with passive crossover (I did find troels passive crossover to sound very transparent) , so I could just use a regular stereo amplifier, but I haven't found anything that beats LX521.
LX mini are also great, but they benefit hugely from open baffle subs to go with them.
They have charisma and I'm very jealous and yes, for me, 6 channels is a bridge too far!
They are the exact opposite of a 2.5 way design. They have to be placed on a bookshelf (exactly as in the photos), in order to compensate for the baffle step effect. If you place them into the room they will sound bass thin.
I already commented on the SBA-761, a wrong design for the OP for his limited space, they are a full baffle compensation design and thus need to be placed away from walls.
Ralf
I've always set up my systems with units >1m from the front wall. Closer always caused coloration I didn't like. I think early reflections (within 7-10ms) from the front wall are problematic in two ways: they obviously sum with the source on a too high level and the auditory system won't be able to recognize the individual sources anymore (precedence), compromising localization in the stereo image.
This also applies to side walls, but the reflections from them seem less problematic to me. But I opt for distances >1m there too. And there of course is the baffle step correction that has to become quite complex when placing speakers near walls. Note I don't refer to baffle step itself, as that concept has limited use in domestic applications.
It is all quite easy to discover this all yourself though.
This also applies to side walls, but the reflections from them seem less problematic to me. But I opt for distances >1m there too. And there of course is the baffle step correction that has to become quite complex when placing speakers near walls. Note I don't refer to baffle step itself, as that concept has limited use in domestic applications.
It is all quite easy to discover this all yourself though.
I'm a little averse to the look of speakers on stands, but the 761 is interesting, not least for its approach to tweeter mid crossover and claimed "natural" upper mid sound. I'm curious as to how it compares to the similarly priced Ekta. For example, I wonder what's the effect of a floor facing port and why the Eta is so heavily braced in its construction compared to the 761.
Thanks for reiterating this Ralf - 761 eliminated from the list. Do you have a position on the three TGs shortlisted and the Ekta Grande with regards to minimum distance from the wall behind them?