Are there any excellent inexpensive Chinese DACs?

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#582
You could bring out a DIY DAC as Group Buy. The XenDAC. "We brought back the Pass element in the DAC"

Despite all the experts that know how to design DACs better than any brand there are practically no projects that members can build. Of current/recent technology that is. Full DIY of digital source/line devices is today impossible, that must be pretty clear. Soon it will be impossible to keep up with class D amplifier ICs and other stuff as well.

So the problem is not demand, it is in the lack of offering/cooperation/collaboration.
 
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#584
jean-paul said:
You could bring out a DIY DAC as Group Buy. The XenDAC.

Despite all the experts that know how to design DACs better than any brand there are no projects that members can build. Full DIY is today impossible, that must be pretty clear. Soon it will be impossible to keep up with class D amplifier ICs and other stuff as well.

So the problem is not demand, it is in the lack of offering/cooperation/collaboration.
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I only read positive things about the FIRDAC by @MarcelvdG , but building a copy/clone requires a lot of time, very specific skills, not comparable to eg assembling and soldering a DIY EL84 amplifier (what can be done with one's bare hands and USD 100 in tools).
 
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#585
jean-paul said:
You could bring out a DIY DAC as Group Buy.
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Hifiamps already did in post #239 (Gerber's included), and others have already built :
www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/are-there-any-excellent-inexpensive-chinese-dacs.419478/post-7882284
www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/are-there-any-excellent-inexpensive-chinese-dacs.419478/post-7896774
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266402263899

It got us curious, so we decided to build one ourselves with own implementation.

😊


Patrick
 

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#586
Current/recent technology. There are enough projects with old/obsolete TH parts for old men or those that sit on a pile of old stuff.

And, as ErikDe best points out, if there is something that resembles a project it is either darn complex with modular approach and many boards, OLED displays, programming or one has to read/follow many pages of information and be partly designer oneself. If one reads/listens carefully one notices this being the point where enthusiasts that just want to solder a DAC stop reading.

There are practically no single board + PSU modern DIY DAC designs that are suitable for the average builder here that just wants the items as found on SMSL/Topping DACs so a DIY DAC that comes even close to functionality, size, quality, reproducibility and price. Just Coax/Toslink/USB in and L + R RCA/XLR out. If they exist please point me to such. When one finds anything it is either complex with superfluous features/possibilities or not available to obtain/clouded in mysteries or outright commercial.

So the logical choice by enthusiasts is Assemble-It-Yourself or modify Chinese non-DIY devices. It is 100% fully logical and it is absurd to attack that as many here like to do without offering an alternative.
 
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#587
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#588
As explained. There are none. There is nothing like SMSL SU-1, PS200, D6s. That is why people buy them and check ASR. All normal logic by normal intelligence people. See possibilities and adapt to what is there.

The first designer that offers a for instance SU-1 like device or board with a nice small linear PSU as project/PCB Group Buy will have hundreds of PCB buyers/builders. The average builder just wants a very good device he can build. Not a device with exemplary lab performance and bizarre numbers only APs and bats may register and pages of studies/scientific blah blah leading to no product. It is that simple.
 
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#589
gabdx said:
it is because lack of points of recall and things to listen to and quantitate them, I am sure with a proper guide route anyone can hear the difference. They just have to train their brains to remember how certain aspects were and memorize them.
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Did you read the study? You and some others here seem to miss the point. If loopback recording is transparent there is no way to have a guide to hear the difference as it is not audible. That transparency is essential in recording process. There were 1367 participants and it is quite likely many of them had similar beliefs and experiences than you and still they failed.

OTOH if you hear a difference between DACs it just means that one of the DACs (or both) is not transparent. Why do you think there are no controlled studies showing audible differences between well measuring DACs?
 
#591
I had four devices with AK4493S at the same time. DIY board from Ali, Fiio K5, Topping DX1, SU-1. Unmodified Fiio K5 was better for me from all Chi-Fi boxes (perhaps primarily because of old AK4493 without S and external power supply), DIY board was my favorite one, but that's not the point.
Both DX1 and SU-1, both are competitors in same price group and measures very good, but sounds differently. DAC it is not only IC DAC chip, DAC is complete device with different usb/spdif reciever, different components, different power supply, different output stage, different clocks. With those many differents it can't be audible the same.
 
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#592
Most know that I think as that is simple logic. It is also logical that a 100 Euro DAC has imperfections because of costcutting. A consequence of customers buying loads of cheap stuff as apparently have a multiple of mediocre stuff is liked.

Combine findings and insight into a "true DIY" DAC with nice PCB and recent technology for a target cost of 200 Euro. Otherwise it will be tens of Chinese devices (so many hundreds of Euro’s which is more expensive in the end) but never a real DIY DAC that does not need to be replaced the next 5 or even 10 years. THAT is effective, efficient and green.

The thread title on a DIY Audio website should have been:

Are there any excellent inexpensive DIY DACs?​

 
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#593
Transparency and sounding the same are different things. Of course it is possible to add colorations to suite your personal taste. But it is also possible to have a medium priced transparent DAC if transparency is the goal. For recording industry transparency is essential. And for many designers a worthy goal.
 
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#595
In answer to the title, here's a PCM56 board which has socketed PCM56s and 4x NE5534, so all devices can be upgraded. I'm using AD1856s, and AD845 as the I/V stage and bypassing the second op-amp by taking the output from the input on the second socket. It sounds good, it was very simple to set up and I'm well satisfied with it so I bought another. It all fits neatly into a Hammond 1550J box with 9V and 15+15V transformers.

https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005003707874596.html?ug_edm_item_id=1005003707874596&pdp_npi=4@dis!GBP!￡32.48!￡25.65!!!!!@2151fae517447394334304862d84d4!12000040927529414!edm!!!&edm_click_module=alg_products&edm_log_data=gmod-edm-item-list-three-columns.track-edm-item-list-three-columns-log-link&tracelog=rowan&rowan_id1=aeug_edm_84132_1_en_US_2025-04-15&rowan_msg_id=8811biz_pay_after_purchase:0:0_577665480$072fc9da281144eda3d2e1b4cb97339d&ck=in_edm_other&mem_info=d5PcsbyzDTDwwTAx4zGqGA==-100104-aeug_edm_84132-uo/aqJNvY L0F2yCktLLQIXBa5P4dBBchsce1o/xVIs=&gatewayAdapt=glo2vnm

PCM56 board 4.jpeg
 
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#597
Let's face it: DIY of modern/recent technology wil practically only be possible when difficult to solder ICs will be presoldered to boards and necessary firmware/software is delivered with it and larger size SMD passive parts are used like 0805. The niche in a niche has become so difficult/complex and dependent of many factors out of reach to the average handy person that only a small club of professionals that also hobby can master it. The technology is not being developed for hobbyists but for design by a handful of specialists (in China?) and then automated production in China as it can not be done competitive elsewhere. Most western attempts are futile or they are as expensive as a car.

So for companies selling their stuff to us for prices we like to pay. In effect the DIY circle has been taken out of the equation. Blaming the DIYers that they don't keep up and should DIY with all the given restraints and requirements is silly.

There is a good reason Neanderthal technology is so popular, it can be understood & built by many regardless if it adds anything useful (preamps for instance). The more complex and impossible to build modern digital audio becomes, the more basic DIY preamp/amplifier designs seem to become.
 
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#598
waxx said:
ASR made a whole wrapup of SINAD and what is hearable and not, with references. If you want to read it you can find it attached. Even if you don't agree you can learn something from it...

Document is the pdf version of what is posted here:
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Most relevant part of the document is the last paragraph (page 19):

"In conclusion, while SINAD is a valid technical measurement reflecting the noise and distortion performance of audio electronics, its practical significance for the listener in a typical living room is often overstated. Once a threshold of competence is met (arguably around 90-100 dB), further improvements are masked by the realities of the listening environment, the limitations of loudspeakers and source material, and the psychoacoustics of human hearing."
 
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