Heissmann have collected quite a bit data on the differences of the challenges of speaker designs in general
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/
Assembly of both completed. Hope to have first sound later today.
There is a feature on the back of the speaker, above the hypex amp... I cannot figure out what I am seeing... ? Some kind of handle with a white plastic cover?
These are two separate things. One is an Apple Airport Express, used as a mounted AirPlay2 WiFi receiver, for use in multiroom streaming from iTunes. It is not connected yet in the pic. It will have its own power cable and optical out to the Hypex.
The handles are just handles.
The handles are just handles.
Just did the first sweeps. Scratching my head. The tweeter and mid behave as expected, but the woofers… I have no bass. Even when I add 9dB gain shelf at 50Hz. Both woofers seem to be playing, but the level is way too low and deep wide dips in the response.
Last edited:
(1) make certain that both woofers are connected with the same polarity. If one is out of phase with the other, you will get very little sound.
(2) I don't recall if this speaker is vented or not... if it is, try stuffing the vent with foam or a towel. This can make trouble shooting easier.
(3) I went back through the thread and attempted to see your simulations, but it might be easier if you could summarize your analysis used to calculate the baffle step compensation and Linkwitz Transform Bass EQ.
I don't know (or forgot how) to open a *.mdat file. Could you post a graphic of the tweeter, Mid, and Woofer on-axis response?
(2) I don't recall if this speaker is vented or not... if it is, try stuffing the vent with foam or a towel. This can make trouble shooting easier.
(3) I went back through the thread and attempted to see your simulations, but it might be easier if you could summarize your analysis used to calculate the baffle step compensation and Linkwitz Transform Bass EQ.
I don't know (or forgot how) to open a *.mdat file. Could you post a graphic of the tweeter, Mid, and Woofer on-axis response?
If both woofers are moving a lot, one might be in the wrong polarity. If they aren't moving much, it may be that you have high-passed instead of low passed. What I'm saying is, there should be sound with the movement. No excursion = no sound.
You can confirm woofer polarity using a 1.5 volt battery. That assumes the wiring is easily accessible. Both woofers should move the same direction when you touch the battery to the speaker wire. Don't do this with the amp connected.
You might be able to see the movement direction with music, but it probably would take a keen eye. Or touch each cone lightly on the dust cap, and feel the movement.
Make a close mic sweep from about 2" from the dust cap of the woofers only. That should tell the story! Then 12" from the baffle, and centered between the two woofers.
Be careful. I'm unfamiliar with your built in amps, etc. You may be as well. Watch the SPL / gain settings. You may suddenly, somehow, unexpectedly get hundreds of watts when unexpected. (Like pressing a mute button, and it was already muted. ) You don't want no surprises. REW surprised me one time with the check level feature. Can't explain specifics, but my sub rocked the room.
You can confirm woofer polarity using a 1.5 volt battery. That assumes the wiring is easily accessible. Both woofers should move the same direction when you touch the battery to the speaker wire. Don't do this with the amp connected.
You might be able to see the movement direction with music, but it probably would take a keen eye. Or touch each cone lightly on the dust cap, and feel the movement.
Make a close mic sweep from about 2" from the dust cap of the woofers only. That should tell the story! Then 12" from the baffle, and centered between the two woofers.
Be careful. I'm unfamiliar with your built in amps, etc. You may be as well. Watch the SPL / gain settings. You may suddenly, somehow, unexpectedly get hundreds of watts when unexpected. (Like pressing a mute button, and it was already muted. ) You don't want no surprises. REW surprised me one time with the check level feature. Can't explain specifics, but my sub rocked the room.
Last edited:
. mdat is REW measurement file, it can consist of several sweeps
Woofers have lowest sensitivity, most likely you must reduce gain of mid and tweeter several dBs, perhaps even ten for the mid that shares same amp as woofer. Hypex allows max +6dB gain, use it for woofers below 100Hz
And hey, check that tweeter uses the small amp NC100HF! And that wires are connected respectively!
Woofers have lowest sensitivity, most likely you must reduce gain of mid and tweeter several dBs, perhaps even ten for the mid that shares same amp as woofer. Hypex allows max +6dB gain, use it for woofers below 100Hz
And hey, check that tweeter uses the small amp NC100HF! And that wires are connected respectively!
Last edited:
Thanks for the tips! @hifijim @temp25 @Juhazi
Polarity is good.
All connections correct.
The box is closed.
I did not do any VCad simulations (totally defeated by it so far). Only did basic WinISD sims for woofers and mid.
I have not done the full HFD setup yet, just did off axis sweeps. Then I looked at the difference at the drives response and set the levels. According to the sweeps all I had to do to match the woofers is drop both the tweeter and the mid by 9dB. I then set tester crossovers: LR24 at 300 and 3k. Sweep the full speaker and play a few tunes. The result was severe lack of bass and a panic post for help.
Looks like @Juhazi is right - simply not enough gain in the bass channel. When I dropped the tweeter and mid a further 3dB and lifted the bass, the speakers immediately started to sound ‘normal’ and I can now see the huge potential. I will continue with proper measurements and setting up and report back. No more time for tinkering today. Got to cook dinner.
Polarity is good.
All connections correct.
The box is closed.
I did not do any VCad simulations (totally defeated by it so far). Only did basic WinISD sims for woofers and mid.
I have not done the full HFD setup yet, just did off axis sweeps. Then I looked at the difference at the drives response and set the levels. According to the sweeps all I had to do to match the woofers is drop both the tweeter and the mid by 9dB. I then set tester crossovers: LR24 at 300 and 3k. Sweep the full speaker and play a few tunes. The result was severe lack of bass and a panic post for help.
Looks like @Juhazi is right - simply not enough gain in the bass channel. When I dropped the tweeter and mid a further 3dB and lifted the bass, the speakers immediately started to sound ‘normal’ and I can now see the huge potential. I will continue with proper measurements and setting up and report back. No more time for tinkering today. Got to cook dinner.
Here are the baseline sweeps for tweeter, mid and both woofers (no filters, just muting the other channels).
I then smoothed the on axis graphs heavily so I can see the relative levels - a 6dB drop on both tw and mid seemed appropriate. I could see the woofers have a response similar to mid and have a dramatic roll off only a bit lower than the mid. I did not expect that.
Measurements in room, mic 2m. First reflections seem to be at abt 4ms.
I then smoothed the on axis graphs heavily so I can see the relative levels - a 6dB drop on both tw and mid seemed appropriate. I could see the woofers have a response similar to mid and have a dramatic roll off only a bit lower than the mid. I did not expect that.
Measurements in room, mic 2m. First reflections seem to be at abt 4ms.
Last edited:
I unzipped the package and opened baseline measurements in REW. I suppose they were done in-room at 1m distance.
They were as default 500ms no smoothing, so I set 30ms right window and 1/3 smoothing for all. Only 0 and 45 deg responses in my graph
Notes:
- Woofer:
-set Shelf1 around 200Hz -5dB for woofer so that 100 and 600Hz have equal spl (baffle step compensation)
-set Lowpass1 at 300Hz
-Mid
-in channel parameter, set gain -8dB and tag Invert
-set Peak Q1 -4dB at 1000Hz
-set Highpass1 at 300Hz (LR2)
-set Lowpass2 at 2500Hz LR4)
-Tweeter
-set Channel parameter Gain -6dB and tag Invert
-set
-set Hihgpass2 at 2500Hz
Measure each channels and "all" on-axis response - also all playing mid without Invert tag!
Most likely tweeter channel needs some delay
Most likely every channel needs more precise settings and more peaks (-dB) and low bass positive peak or shelf (I recommend peak)
When on-axis looks good, check also off-axis response of the system. Try different xo freq for M/T
They were as default 500ms no smoothing, so I set 30ms right window and 1/3 smoothing for all. Only 0 and 45 deg responses in my graph
Notes:
- Dip around 50-60Hz is room mode or reflection - don't worry
- tweeter and mid play much louder that woofers, because they are more sensitive. Are woofers wired serial or parallel? Looks like amp channels are set ok.
- response curves look like they should be, pretty good. Also the system response is OK except too little baffle step compensation below 200Hz or bad interference with the mid?
- Woofer:
-set Shelf1 around 200Hz -5dB for woofer so that 100 and 600Hz have equal spl (baffle step compensation)
-set Lowpass1 at 300Hz
-Mid
-in channel parameter, set gain -8dB and tag Invert
-set Peak Q1 -4dB at 1000Hz
-set Highpass1 at 300Hz (LR2)
-set Lowpass2 at 2500Hz LR4)
-Tweeter
-set Channel parameter Gain -6dB and tag Invert
-set
-set Hihgpass2 at 2500Hz
Measure each channels and "all" on-axis response - also all playing mid without Invert tag!
Most likely tweeter channel needs some delay
Most likely every channel needs more precise settings and more peaks (-dB) and low bass positive peak or shelf (I recommend peak)
When on-axis looks good, check also off-axis response of the system. Try different xo freq for M/T
A couple of years ago I built an active 3-way with dual woofers, using the Hypex FA-123. These are 8" woofers, but this project is definitely similar to yours.
For comparison purposes, I will share the woofer filter settings. Looking at my Hypex filter for the two parallel woofers, I see that I have a 6 dB shelf at 215 Hz for baffle step, then another 8 dB shelf at 40 Hz for the Linkwitz Transform bass EQ. The net result is that I have 14 dB more gain at 40 Hz then I do at 300 Hz.
j.
For comparison purposes, I will share the woofer filter settings. Looking at my Hypex filter for the two parallel woofers, I see that I have a 6 dB shelf at 215 Hz for baffle step, then another 8 dB shelf at 40 Hz for the Linkwitz Transform bass EQ. The net result is that I have 14 dB more gain at 40 Hz then I do at 300 Hz.
j.
thank you @hifijim this is a very good reference point. indeed, similar speakers! my woofers are 5.5in but high excursion and the amp is 250W which should compensate for some of the woofer size difference
my baffle is 160mm so BSC f should be about 720Hz, right? 115/baffle width in m. that is way into the midrange
my baffle is 160mm so BSC f should be about 720Hz, right? 115/baffle width in m. that is way into the midrange