Having spent a number of years doing DIY HiFi stuff I've started appreciating aspects of pro audio world. Recently I was checking out recordings of some NIN concerts as I was fortunate enough to catch two live shows at San Diego Uni. The first show was wild because the drummer basically had a heart attack about 15min into the set. Trent came out and said the show was cancelled but he'd make it up to us. He did! About a year later everyone got free tickets to another show. These shows were by far the most memorable concerts I've ever seen. The power was intense, organ shaking, at mid-center stadium. The opener (I forget which show) was Queens of the Stone Age. Their set was basically anemic in comparison. This has me wondering, just how much power would a NIN concert require? A couple megawatts wouldn't surprise me. But this is another world to me so maybe even a few megawatts is pedestrian? Anyway, big salute to people that run these amazing rigs!
The power will depend on the size of the space, and the efficiency of the speakers.
A couple of decent dual-18 subs with a couple of thousand watts driving each one, plus matching mid-tops with a few hundred to a thousand or so watts, is enough to get ear splittingly loud in a small space like a pub, but would be decidedly anaemic in say a 500-person club - that would likely need 4x the gear and power.
Even stadium concerts and big outdoor festivals are likely in the high hundreds of thousands of watts, rather than into the megawatts range.
A couple of decent dual-18 subs with a couple of thousand watts driving each one, plus matching mid-tops with a few hundred to a thousand or so watts, is enough to get ear splittingly loud in a small space like a pub, but would be decidedly anaemic in say a 500-person club - that would likely need 4x the gear and power.
Even stadium concerts and big outdoor festivals are likely in the high hundreds of thousands of watts, rather than into the megawatts range.
Hi and welcome aboard!
NIN use a wider freq range than most rock and roll band, the use of synthesizer for low end, drum machine sound and such makes for a feeling of huge sound.
That's one of the reason EDM have such big audience.
And the guy/girls doing technical duty on NIN tour are no beginners either.
NIN use a wider freq range than most rock and roll band, the use of synthesizer for low end, drum machine sound and such makes for a feeling of huge sound.
That's one of the reason EDM have such big audience.
And the guy/girls doing technical duty on NIN tour are no beginners either.
I did come across one source that cited megawatt levels at festivals but most other mentions put even huge venues around the 1/2 MW range. I suppose if you're running a megawatt generator (which is not entirely uncommon) to power a festival and it's just basically idling, you might still be inclined to say it's a MW level show. When looking for exact power levels of NIN shows I came across an article about them having a blowout in Australia during a heatwave in 2009. The exact cause was never disclosed but Trent joked that someone kicked the plug during the 40min blackout. Ironically the song that did them in was called Burn lol!
Aha, that really makes a lot of sense. If your opener is drums/guitars and you follow that up with a full spectrum assault it's going to be like a tidal wave of sound hitting the audience.
One fascinating aspect of these shows is the logistical undertaking. It seems to me that if you can maintain a high standard of sound quality with the most compact/lightest gear you win. Setting aside all of the technical expertise required, simply getting a system from A to B, assembling it the fastest and for the least amount of money would be a serious advantage.
it's not about power but money. how much money is the real question.
as for power about 500 KW worth of amps but they will only pull about 20 KW of actual power from the grid because amp rating is MUSIC power not sinewave power.
as for how much money - VERY expensive. a single JBL VTX array element is like $15,000 and a single Crown I-Tech amp is also $15,000.
you're looking at over a million dollars for the whole setup. not counting the cost of rigging or labor to set it up.
bottom line is your home has enough power at the main circuit breaker for a mini NIN concert but you don't have enough money for all the gear.
most new homes have a main breaker for 200A @ 240V which is almost 50KW of SINEWAVE power. efficient amps like Powersoft can deliver at least 10 watts of music power for every watt of sinewave power input, but remember not all the amps will be fully loaded. for the most part only the subs will be driven flat out. so you can hook up probably a megawatt worth of amps to your home's main circuit breaker.
over 95% of all power ends up as heat. only maybe 2 or 3 percent as sound. take a hair dryer - that's 1,800W of heat. it probably takes about 10 hair dryers worth of heat to run a mini NIN concert out of which about 90% has to be dissipated by the voice coils and the remaining 10% by amps and other electronics.
the organ shaking bass mainly comes from 95 db efficient woofers acoustically coupling to each other in the array creating a sort of virtual horn loading for bass. actually it is harder to create good highs with an array than good lows.
also when i say your home's breaker can run NIN concert i mean you would have to disconnect the home itself and run only the amps, no lighting or air conditioning or anything like that. LOL
by the way i assumed two arrays - one on each side of stage. that is enough to get you your organ shaking power. but if you want to cover a larger area you will use more arrays obviously and more power.
but even if it's a lot more power, again, power is not the issue. a Porsche Taycan pulls 300KW of CONSTANT DIRECT CURRENT POWER when charging. this would be enough to run 3 megawatts worth of amps or so. they issue is money. the gear used at such events is precisely engineered and therefore expensive. not because of power, but because of 1st world engineering - not Chinese junk like Sinbosen.
as for power about 500 KW worth of amps but they will only pull about 20 KW of actual power from the grid because amp rating is MUSIC power not sinewave power.
as for how much money - VERY expensive. a single JBL VTX array element is like $15,000 and a single Crown I-Tech amp is also $15,000.
you're looking at over a million dollars for the whole setup. not counting the cost of rigging or labor to set it up.
bottom line is your home has enough power at the main circuit breaker for a mini NIN concert but you don't have enough money for all the gear.
most new homes have a main breaker for 200A @ 240V which is almost 50KW of SINEWAVE power. efficient amps like Powersoft can deliver at least 10 watts of music power for every watt of sinewave power input, but remember not all the amps will be fully loaded. for the most part only the subs will be driven flat out. so you can hook up probably a megawatt worth of amps to your home's main circuit breaker.
over 95% of all power ends up as heat. only maybe 2 or 3 percent as sound. take a hair dryer - that's 1,800W of heat. it probably takes about 10 hair dryers worth of heat to run a mini NIN concert out of which about 90% has to be dissipated by the voice coils and the remaining 10% by amps and other electronics.
the organ shaking bass mainly comes from 95 db efficient woofers acoustically coupling to each other in the array creating a sort of virtual horn loading for bass. actually it is harder to create good highs with an array than good lows.
also when i say your home's breaker can run NIN concert i mean you would have to disconnect the home itself and run only the amps, no lighting or air conditioning or anything like that. LOL
by the way i assumed two arrays - one on each side of stage. that is enough to get you your organ shaking power. but if you want to cover a larger area you will use more arrays obviously and more power.
but even if it's a lot more power, again, power is not the issue. a Porsche Taycan pulls 300KW of CONSTANT DIRECT CURRENT POWER when charging. this would be enough to run 3 megawatts worth of amps or so. they issue is money. the gear used at such events is precisely engineered and therefore expensive. not because of power, but because of 1st world engineering - not Chinese junk like Sinbosen.
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Thinking I may have a solution for the endless barking out of one corner of the neighborhood. But seriously, I was finding prices close to 500k for a set of 24 A12s which is pretty crazy. And that looks like a small setup compared to the big shows.
Depends on the show.
Back on 7/23/90, we (STS) did sound for Nine Inch Nails and Meat Beat Manifesto at First Avenue in Minneapolis with a Welter Systems four block 16,000 watt horn loaded system, 32 x15", 32x12", 16 x 2445 (4" diaphragm) , 16x2425 (1.75" diaphragm).
The samples NIN used were amazing, I recall my eyeballs wobbling on some low hits, well over 120dB at front of house.
With the amplifiers used back then, that system probably drew somewhere in the 30kW range peak, averaging near 50 amps each of two 120volt legs.
The shows you saw around 2005 probably were in between that system and the 2009 L-Acoustics rig:
That system has over four times the drivers used in 1990, and over ten times the peak power.
https://www.prosoundweb.com/the-system-audio-team-for-the-latest-nine-inch-nails-concert-tour/
Each doubling of low frequency drivers gains +3dB sensitivity/efficiency, so the long lines may actually use less power than a smaller system. Class D amps only require about half the power per output watt as the old "heavy iron".
A system like the 2009 L-Acoustics rig probably would average less than 600 amps on a 208V 3phase service.
That said, video and lighting can suck megawatts.
The Las Vegas Sphere probably has the world's largest video (and sound) installation, and estimates of 28 megawatt peak consumption seem to be common.
Art
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if you have a crowd of 10,000 people that would only be 5 dollars per ticket.
so it all comes down to being able to fill the venue. actually same problem as with public transit. buses and trains are very efficient ... unless they run empty.
That's awesome! Apparently that was their debut tour according to the MBM wiki.
Via the 2009 equipment list I can see how they were able to shake organs with all those 18s. Looks like they are working with around ten tons worth of speakers alone. 300kW seems like a pretty good bargain for the performance outcome.
I've been working in Pro Audio for many years and I see a lot of speculation here, but I'm familiar with the NIN rig and I know several people who have worked for them.
They almost always have an L-Acoustics PA system as outlined above. It would probably be a 16-20 deep line away on each side of K1/K2 boxes with more SB28 and other subs flown and on the ground. Plus, there will be side hangs of slightly smaller size. The power distros will be a 200 amp 3 phase service on each side (or just a single 400amp 3 phase service shared depending on the venue). It would be difficult to calculate the total wattage but I can tell you that it's pulling around 50-150 amps per leg of the 3 phase system. I've personally tested it. But this is because the newer amplifiers are much more efficient and don't have the same peak power draw as old Class A/B amplifiers.
Also, this is a pretty standard PA system for most concerts and isn't really different for NIN. Pearl Jam, Slipknot, Avenged Sevenfold, Incubus and many others use pretty much the same rig with some slight variations here and there.
They almost always have an L-Acoustics PA system as outlined above. It would probably be a 16-20 deep line away on each side of K1/K2 boxes with more SB28 and other subs flown and on the ground. Plus, there will be side hangs of slightly smaller size. The power distros will be a 200 amp 3 phase service on each side (or just a single 400amp 3 phase service shared depending on the venue). It would be difficult to calculate the total wattage but I can tell you that it's pulling around 50-150 amps per leg of the 3 phase system. I've personally tested it. But this is because the newer amplifiers are much more efficient and don't have the same peak power draw as old Class A/B amplifiers.
Also, this is a pretty standard PA system for most concerts and isn't really different for NIN. Pearl Jam, Slipknot, Avenged Sevenfold, Incubus and many others use pretty much the same rig with some slight variations here and there.
PA systems are drastically better and more efficient than what we had in the 90's. The amplifiers are so much more efficient. I remember testing some old Crown amps that were Class A/B and I was seeing 400 amps a leg peak (on a 400 service and it wasn't tripping breakers). Newer stuff will have more acoustic output and I can see as low as 50 amps a leg now. So I think your numbers are pretty accurate here.
While this is clearly an older rider, it's pretty accurate. They would need a total of 400 amp service on 3 phase to run it, which is standard in arenas and amphitheaters across the US. The difference with video and lighting is that they have a lot less dynamic power use. With audio, it's all about the subs and the amperage goes up and down a lot. With video, it doesn't fluctuate as much. It can fluctuate with lighting, for obvious reasons but nothing hits as hard as the subs. Video and lighting will also have a 200-400 amp 3 phase service for each of them in these venues.
The PA system, including consoles, stage equipment, etc. is probably 2-3 Million dollars worth of gear. It's all rented from an audio company. This is why a band tours. The first few weeks pay the rental and the last couple of weeks tends to be the profit though I'm grossly simplifying it. The audio companies buy the gear and rent them. They keep it working and they make their profits that way.
This is why I would think that, assuming comparable performance, the smallest and lightest rig is going to be the preferable option to the crew and especially whomever gets stuck moving it back and forth. How's everyone's backs? 😀 I used to work in the submersible pump industry and it definitely did a number on mine; so anytime I see a lot of heavy things moving up and down it's all I can think about. "Can we make this lighter?" lol
Well, not exactly. First, it's all hung from motors so nobody is lifting it except in rare occasions. When the boxes are on the ground, they are on dolly boards that have wheels so they're pushed around.
When weight matters is in certain venues (often old buildings or theater sized) where there are weight restrictions because the building can only hold so much in certain spots. Weight and size also matter in regards to truck space, which is a concern on tours. As technicians, we don't care if it's heavier. Some PA systems have the amplifiers in them and weigh more. Some require more cabling, which is a considerable amount of weight. But we let the motors do the work.
That being said, we have seen a lot of PA systems get lighter with better technology. A modern line array certainly covers more seats and much more evenly than an old baffle PA while being lighter.
When weight matters is in certain venues (often old buildings or theater sized) where there are weight restrictions because the building can only hold so much in certain spots. Weight and size also matter in regards to truck space, which is a concern on tours. As technicians, we don't care if it's heavier. Some PA systems have the amplifiers in them and weigh more. Some require more cabling, which is a considerable amount of weight. But we let the motors do the work.
That being said, we have seen a lot of PA systems get lighter with better technology. A modern line array certainly covers more seats and much more evenly than an old baffle PA while being lighter.
i don't have direct experience in Prosound so indeed my numbers were an educated guess and it seems could have been a bit on the optimistic side ...
however i did once, long time ago, obtain a degree in electrical engineering and wanted to point out that 3 phase is definitely a superior source of power ... it's not just "bigger" - it is BETTER
3 phases when combined add to constant power like DC, while regular AC power has pulses with gaps of nothing in between that must be filled with capacitors in the power supply. with 3 phase power there are no gaps.
furthermore grid power is 3 phase and residential power is simply tapped off of one of the phases, which is frankly stupid. it's just that when this system was originally designed people were using electricity for things like incandescent bulbs and it didn't really matter.
but DC power is superior, and actually used in some 800 kilovolt super long lines, then 3 phase and regular 1 or 2 phase power ( which are basically the same ) is the worst and that's what we get in our homes LOL
people sometime talk of "stiff" power supply rails, meaning rails that do not sag ( in voltage ) under load. well i think with 3 phase power the PSU will just be inherently stiffer, and combined with class D amps make powering all the subs fairly easy.
actually something else you may not know is modern locomotives and cruise ships do not drive the wheels or propellers directly. they run generators and the wheels and propellers are run by electric motors. which is why i said that power isn't the issue. when dealing with DC or multi-phase, power levels in he hundreds of KW are common even with affordable consumer Electric Vehicles. it's only when you come from background of 120V ( or 220V in Europe ) that these figures seem big.
however i did once, long time ago, obtain a degree in electrical engineering and wanted to point out that 3 phase is definitely a superior source of power ... it's not just "bigger" - it is BETTER
3 phases when combined add to constant power like DC, while regular AC power has pulses with gaps of nothing in between that must be filled with capacitors in the power supply. with 3 phase power there are no gaps.
furthermore grid power is 3 phase and residential power is simply tapped off of one of the phases, which is frankly stupid. it's just that when this system was originally designed people were using electricity for things like incandescent bulbs and it didn't really matter.
but DC power is superior, and actually used in some 800 kilovolt super long lines, then 3 phase and regular 1 or 2 phase power ( which are basically the same ) is the worst and that's what we get in our homes LOL
people sometime talk of "stiff" power supply rails, meaning rails that do not sag ( in voltage ) under load. well i think with 3 phase power the PSU will just be inherently stiffer, and combined with class D amps make powering all the subs fairly easy.
actually something else you may not know is modern locomotives and cruise ships do not drive the wheels or propellers directly. they run generators and the wheels and propellers are run by electric motors. which is why i said that power isn't the issue. when dealing with DC or multi-phase, power levels in he hundreds of KW are common even with affordable consumer Electric Vehicles. it's only when you come from background of 120V ( or 220V in Europe ) that these figures seem big.
3 phase power is a double edge sword with regard to rectifier loads. A 3 phase rectifier load is niiiice. Tolerable ripple even without filtering. But 3 individual single phase rectifiers (typical when you plug in amplifiers) is a whole nother ball of wax. Those charging pulses for the capacitors are just as bad on 3 phase power. You don’t get that nice even constant power profile - you still get pulses. To make matters worse, all that 3rd harmonic current ADDS in the neutral. The neutral is usually undersized, because it assumes load balancing. All the old iron horse/pig amps did it this way, and cheaper switch mode is even worse because you don’t have the impedance of the transformer to help stretch the pulses. Your budget PA which is often used in smaller venues which might not even be up to code can cause problems. If they are running an open delta system (2 pole pigs to make 3 phase) you might not even want to take the gig - or at least make sure the whole rig is on one of the phases. If you have a 3 phase distro it will NOT work properly.
The real touring stuff is power factor corrected. That’s one of the reasons those amplifiers cost $4k-15k. Doing a PFC supply that can provide 15kW of DC power (for even 50 ms at a time) without misbehaving or running parts outside of safe limits is EXPENSIVE. Very expensive. The class D amplifier itself is cheaper and more straightforward to design than its power supply. PFC supplies (good ones) draw sine-enough waves to look lore like a regular motor load that the utility company normally plans for.
The real touring stuff is power factor corrected. That’s one of the reasons those amplifiers cost $4k-15k. Doing a PFC supply that can provide 15kW of DC power (for even 50 ms at a time) without misbehaving or running parts outside of safe limits is EXPENSIVE. Very expensive. The class D amplifier itself is cheaper and more straightforward to design than its power supply. PFC supplies (good ones) draw sine-enough waves to look lore like a regular motor load that the utility company normally plans for.
so it's rented once for the duration of the tour and then it has to be transported from location to location along with the band ?
interesting i thought they would either rent locally or just own their equipment but what you're saying makes sense. when a new album comes out rent equipment once and do a tour around the world.
i once tried to get an answer on ProSoundWeb for why touring amps cost so much more than install amps and only got vague answers like "a touring amp has a harder life than an install amp" ... but now i see a touring amp is designed to be rented. the same car that costs $300 a month to lease costs $100 per DAY to rent, because rental gear ( whether car or amp ) is abused.
i also wondered why install amps don't use standard Neutrik connectors and instead use those stupid barrier strip terminals. the more naive people would say it's because that makes more sense for an install situation ... but i think the real reason is so that people don't end up renting these amps out then trying to get them repaired under warranty after some drunk guy drops them into a puddle. the barrier strip terminal is intentionally frustrating to discourage touring use.
i think install amps designed for Cinema use make a great value for home audio ( to power subs ). they're almost same level of engineering as as touring amps but with less robust cabinets and without Neutrik connectors and for HALF THE PRICE.
the other option to power home subs is to buy used amps that are considered too chonky by modern touring and PA standards and are getting replaced with thinner and lighter gear despite being in good working order ...
i think too many people think in these terms end up driving the popularity of powersoft.
but two single RU amps weigh more than one 2RU amp.
the real goal should be maximum power and channel count per amp not minimum size and weight per amp.
we need to see more 4 and 8 channel 2RU amps rather than simply more 1RU amps.
i think 2RU is ideal because it allows the use of 80mm fans that are pretty good. 1RU amps use weird fans.
3RU amps that used to be common are indeed not necessary because you don't need 120 mm fans unless you're running a space heater ( class AB / H )