"There are these 2" horns I found on ZXPC's website -"
These are very good value. Overall decently solid and well made.
The throats may need a bit of work if you are a perfectionist.
The throat area may need a brace if you plan to mount a very heavy driver and/or will subject them to rough handling.
...but that's quite OK, considering the price. They are also pretty easy to drill / grind, so are a good test rig (e.g. to try a DIY Synergy, without too much work / without buying a lot of tools).
I extended my ZXPC horns & built them into a fairly solid enclosure (see post 20).
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/paper-cone-open-frame-driver-for-front-horn.275899/
One day soon, I hope to get these horns (or something similar), soffit mounted in a dedicated room.
These are very good value. Overall decently solid and well made.
The throats may need a bit of work if you are a perfectionist.
The throat area may need a brace if you plan to mount a very heavy driver and/or will subject them to rough handling.
...but that's quite OK, considering the price. They are also pretty easy to drill / grind, so are a good test rig (e.g. to try a DIY Synergy, without too much work / without buying a lot of tools).
I extended my ZXPC horns & built them into a fairly solid enclosure (see post 20).
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/paper-cone-open-frame-driver-for-front-horn.275899/
One day soon, I hope to get these horns (or something similar), soffit mounted in a dedicated room.
I have got ES-600 and I can compare it HF950. The ES-600 has much narrower beam, but they seem to produce more stable imaging when being placed close to the front wall. ES-600 are 2x more expensive if being printed, or 10x more expensive if being made from wood.
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Hello there!
May be my contribution to this thread is obsolete, i have a stereo setup with quite large horns in my home office, here the thread link:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ultimate-open-baffle-gallery.123512/post-7393996
The waveguide for the 8 inch driver is too small for the kick bass extension of the midrange wood horn, i know that, it is intended for another project and only for testing in this construction. The wood horns comes from here: https://www.lautsprechermanufaktur-heyder.de/en-us/lmh-horns/strak-horns - they aren't really cheap but if you look at the cost of the wood itself it is OK for me. I have purchased a pair of of these drivers here: https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/hf-driver/1-4/16/dcm414-16 and in combination with the 16 inch wood horn with tractrix shape and a small amount of PEQ in Hypex fusion plate amps they sound really good for me. I have a CLIO pocket measurement system, i need some help for carrying out the big construction and make some decent measurement outside in the garden
May be my contribution to this thread is obsolete, i have a stereo setup with quite large horns in my home office, here the thread link:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ultimate-open-baffle-gallery.123512/post-7393996
The waveguide for the 8 inch driver is too small for the kick bass extension of the midrange wood horn, i know that, it is intended for another project and only for testing in this construction. The wood horns comes from here: https://www.lautsprechermanufaktur-heyder.de/en-us/lmh-horns/strak-horns - they aren't really cheap but if you look at the cost of the wood itself it is OK for me. I have purchased a pair of of these drivers here: https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/hf-driver/1-4/16/dcm414-16 and in combination with the 16 inch wood horn with tractrix shape and a small amount of PEQ in Hypex fusion plate amps they sound really good for me. I have a CLIO pocket measurement system, i need some help for carrying out the big construction and make some decent measurement outside in the garden
Put the speakers up on a stand and measure the polar response, i.e. the frequency response at multiple angles using gating as necessary. This is the first and most important measurement to make. Clio, HolmImpulse, whatever, they all make the same measurements. It's not hard, just tedious.
Excuse any obvious ignorance but might anyone have generated or otherwise come across a constant directivity plot with the TH-4001 horn-ideally, this one https://www.athosaudio.com/2021/01/01/tad-th-4001/ -again, ideally with a driver not requiring a throat adapter?
The TH-4001 is not a constant directivity horn, but should have similar horizontal polar response to the Yuichi 290:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...horns-measurements.395046/page-3#post-7253040
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...horns-measurements.395046/page-3#post-7253040
Yes, I saw that post of docali’s before and I thought that it might be a close comparison. Reading this, does the plot say that from about 750Hz to 7.5kHz the output remains ~ 6db over a 60 degree horizontal angle? If not, please clarify.
Also, why is the 4001 not a CD horn? Because it has fins?
Here’s Troy Crowe’s ES450 horn (no fins)
https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d...3-es450-biradial-for-sb-audience-65cdn-t-1-40
https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d...3-es450-biradial-for-sb-audience-65cdn-t-1-40
But might this be “even less” of a CD than the 4001, as its output decreases with increasing frequency?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0..._Filled_Contour_Plot_480x480.png?v=1697218866
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...ot_2023-10-14_170306_480x480.png?v=1697317415
What else is more close to CD than a fin horn in hrz plane? Not taken diffraction horns into consideration.
Another question:
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/altec-a7-owners.1146180/page-2 Perhaps because they were PA "pro audio" horns? Evidently, that's not so of the TH-4001.
Do CD horns tend to be "harsh sounding"? That's what former Altec engineer Ampexed said of at the ones he's heard,
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/altec-a7-owners.1146180/page-2 Perhaps because they were PA "pro audio" horns? Evidently, that's not so of the TH-4001.
Fins are not there to enforce dispersion. They have a tendency not to improve the situation.
They are there for cross sectional expansion, and the expansion implies they may contribute diffraction and if they do, it will be spread across their exits.
Allen, you really think it's necessary to explain the function of fins to the designer of the mk3b2 horn?
Incidentally, that wasn't the main point of my post, but that these horns guarantee a very wide and relatively constant radiation pattern in the hrz plane. The vertical is a different story.
There is no question that it is not easy to get the wavefront coherent, especially at the exit of the fins.
But you can listen to music very satisfactorily with these horns. I did that myself for a few years with the TH4001.
Incidentally, that wasn't the main point of my post, but that these horns guarantee a very wide and relatively constant radiation pattern in the hrz plane. The vertical is a different story.
There is no question that it is not easy to get the wavefront coherent, especially at the exit of the fins.
But you can listen to music very satisfactorily with these horns. I did that myself for a few years with the TH4001.
Not my experience. Fins horns have issues, no question. Please search for mk3b2 to overcome these issues. But that description from a person who probably never heard a good setup with these horns.
So, you’re the designer of that horn. https://sphericalhorns.net/2023/10/14/the-first-build-of-the-mk3b2-radial-fin-horn/
https://sphericalhorns.net/2023/10/...ile-acoustic-loading-optimized-fc-300hz-horn/
Too bad that it’s not an option for me at this point. What I don’t get is that from everything that I recall reading from dialogues from Pierre with you and/or others, I thought that Pierre said that the fins are necessary and/or assist with HF/MF dispersion. But what penalties do the fins impose on sound quality in the 4001 horn? And though Pierre would have likely implemented it, isn’t there any kind of fix for that?
But please advise: Troy Crowe claims that his ES horns produce zero coloration.
https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d...3-es450-biradial-for-sb-audience-65cdn-t-1-40
https://josephcrowe.com/products/es-290-biradial-wood-horn
But as its seems clear that these horns will not produce constant directivity (regardless of the driver used???), could I be correct in assuming that the narrowing in the projection of the midrange bands will tend to produce a “They are Here” soundscape-much like what Gary said he receives from his JMLC 425/Yamaha JA6681B combo? https://galibierdesign.com/wa-trip-01/
Alternately, to my ears, I can’t know how much if any coloration the 4001 horns produce. Pierre had long ago invited me to hear his speakers but I'm unable to travel that far a distance. But Pierre did mention that he receives a “You are There” soundscape from his speakers. Conversely, could that be because the 4001 horn produces much more constant directivity (regardless of driver used???) than the ES horns?
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Unlike a narrow directivity horn (e.g. Troy Crowe's ES290 or more so the JMLC 425), would this CD horn present a "You are There" sound? https://audiohorn.net/next-gen-bi-radial-horn/
The wider the directivity, the more spacious the sound because the increase in very early reflections leads to "spaciousness". But, the wider directivity will also degrade imaging for exactly the same reason - more early reflections mess up imaging. One can never completely achieve "I am there" simply because you are not there. Wide directivity can enhance the limited allusion of "I am there," but only at the sake of good imaging as one might seek for studio work. It's a tradeoff.
And be careful using terms like CD (constant directivity) because being a buzz word just because someone claims "CD" doesn't mean that it is. JMLC horns ar not CD. The other horn that you link to is CD in the horizontal, but not the vertical.
And be careful using terms like CD (constant directivity) because being a buzz word just because someone claims "CD" doesn't mean that it is. JMLC horns ar not CD. The other horn that you link to is CD in the horizontal, but not the vertical.
"Very early" reflections don't leas to more spaciousness. That happens with reflections after 7 ms.
True constant broadband directivity horns in both planes is possible with a diffraction slot. Other horn types will become too big to achieve it. Diffraction slot has received a bad reputation, but it doesn't have to be at all with the rigth design.
True constant broadband directivity horns in both planes is possible with a diffraction slot. Other horn types will become too big to achieve it. Diffraction slot has received a bad reputation, but it doesn't have to be at all with the rigth design.
You would have to supply a reference to this "fact" since it goes against my understanding of the psychoacoustics of spaciousness. I once asked Jeans Blauert this same question and he said that the early reflections would add to spaciousness.
It's described in Toole's book. There's a chart that shows it, but I couldn't find it online now.
Very early reflections have more impact on imaging, clarity, smoothness and correct tonality. Should always be attenuated as much as possible IMO and also why a big horn speaker with broadband and quite narrow directivity in both planes has clear advantages. Except size and WAF of course.
Lateral late arrival diffuse energy (approximately 17-22 ms area) can add spaciosness without having an derimental effect on imaging, but it's not exactly the same as side wall reflections arriving in the area of 7-10 ms. Side wall reflections are never really beneficial IMO compared to good treatment.
Very early reflections have more impact on imaging, clarity, smoothness and correct tonality. Should always be attenuated as much as possible IMO and also why a big horn speaker with broadband and quite narrow directivity in both planes has clear advantages. Except size and WAF of course.
Lateral late arrival diffuse energy (approximately 17-22 ms area) can add spaciosness without having an derimental effect on imaging, but it's not exactly the same as side wall reflections arriving in the area of 7-10 ms. Side wall reflections are never really beneficial IMO compared to good treatment.
I certainly agree that early reflections are the dominate factor in the perception of image while later reflections are thus dominate in spaciousness. But it is a continuum of overlapping times that is dependent on signal spectrum, room characteristics, listener placement, etc. While dominate at later times, early reflections still do enhance spaciousness. Imaging is all over in the first several ms. About the only generalizations that one can make in this complex situation is that narrow directivity favors imaging while wide directivity favors spaciousness.
Do you mean "fins", such as those in Pierre's TH4001 horns? See posts 15266, 15276? https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/page-764
And the fins in this apparently better performing new version of the 4001 horn?
https://audiohorn.net/next-gen-bi-radial-horn/
Compare the polar plots of the A290, TH4001 and NicoB's Next Gen 4001.
Presumably, owing to the overall mouth dimensions, the 1.4" vertical directivity plot is very narrow in the Next Gen 4001. But while the 1.4" horizontal directivity plot does appear quite constant out to ~ 12kHz, is that 30 degree window too narrow even for a room only ~ 23 ft x 15?
Might Troy Crowe's ES290 horn be a better choice?
http://croweaudio.blogspot.com/2020/03/es-290-biradial-with-jbl-2446h.html
Other suggested horns welcome for above my midwoofers.
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed?_pos=8&_sid=085086a60&_ss=r
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