Bass chest kick science

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#101
It smells to me like the ole woofer speed issue.

I have compared few different subwoofers besides of each other, with different characteristics to it. Once the frequency response is matched, the feel of it is within hair splitting range, where only box resonances and decay might play some small role. Other than that, it starts to sound rather same.
And yes, I have my fair share of cheap Sony and other car woofers listened to, and it boils down to weak motor, and light cone and high tuning that boosts 70-ish Hz very much, while the true bass is missing. I also used the B&C suggested design with 18TBX100 in 30l box tuned at 60Hz, and it kicked like a horse.
It´s interesting how mere nasty resonance and weak motor can do so much fun, while proper audio seems to sound somewhat dull...

Also if I want that very kicky feel from some tracks, I just cut of everything under 45Hz and add volume. That will do.

Now, for the driver "aspects" ratios - did the OP count with the fact that the bigger mass of a larger driver needs less travel distance than the smaller driver, so the weight of the cone is not as big disqualifier as it seems to be?
 
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#103
Even 450-500g one:
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/lf-driver/21/8/21SW152
https://www.precision-devices.com/products/all-products/pd-2160-1n/

Though at high power, you do not want to cut it above 120Hz, with certain designs above 100Hz, because the coil is not moving much, thus not cooling much, and such driver in certain configurations when run hot might not make it. It happens. Fortunately, these high Bl drivers have this midbass rise, so they basically go to 100-110Hz even when you cut em at around 90Hz.
 
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#106

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#107
Crashpc said:
Also if I want that very kicky feel from some tracks, I just cut of everything under 45Hz and add volume. That will do.
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Interesting. Most realistic kick drum ive heard / felt from domestic speakers was from the original B&W 801. Big unvented box. Naturally would roll off below 40 hz I'd imagine. I've not heard a sub that came close to them. Mind you not heard a lot of subs 🙂.
 
#108
matt996 said:
...Most things I've read place chest kick around 60-80 Hz, which aligns with a likely strong response peak in a cheap sub to give the impression of strong bass using a cheap driver in a ported box...
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A big response peak around 80ish Hz to make people feel a "thump" I've always referred to as "faux bass". All sins forgiven if it's a small two way design trying to be bigger than it is, but once a separate subwoofer is involved I can't stand it.
 
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#109
Do you remember that "Genius 5.1 Home Theater" original set? That was a benchmark. Called 5.1 Home huuuuuuum, because there is no other better one note system than that one. Maybe if Redstar RS214 wasn't that small, it could outdo it with its ported design and "speakers" measured with Qes of 4. 🤭 You put ANY signal in that thing, and it will turn it into 120Hz. Tone. 😂
 
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#111
To get the kick, I think you need: To be able to move plenty of air without too much distortion. Then, similar to what others have suggested, add a HPF with a peaking response that reduces some of the lowest bass frequencies below about 60Hz and adds a peak in the 80Hz to 100Hz region. The filter tricks the brain into thinking there's more bass when there may actually be less. It's a common studio technique to use peaking HP/LP filters like the Pultec in this way or flipped to cut before boosting for other effects. Another way is to place the speaker driver in a (un)suitably tuned box, that's what the cheaper subs do to get the same result ie a peak before a roll-off. Here's a thing I pulled from the interweb, fair use?

Cheers, Ralph
 

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#112
Indeed! Though I am not sure about the distortion. Because it creates higher order content, that has the potential to be faster, making it sound kickier and more structurated. When I hear the drywall ceiling to rattle in the bass, it is somewhat satisfying to have sharper noises added to it, than just hummm. "Raaarrrr" bass is appealing. :-D
 
#113
In addition to chest kick, there can be tactile feel on skin and eyeballs as some one already mentioned. fun stuff. For example arpeggio / rhytmic synth on Kraftwerk's The robots has such tactile feel to it. Sufficiently intact impulse, enough pressure variation to make some touchy feel to it, or something. I bet bad group delay could reduce this peak pressure and effect, while added distortion (harmonics) without time smear could enhance some. Just speculation, perhaps it's something else. I think kimmosto has talked something along the lines of skin feel at some point, likely many others too 🤔
 
#115
Oh yeah that's quite fun as well, everyone, try placing your speakers / sub driver pointing up (or down) so they'll vibrate the floor maximally. This is quite fun actually to feel the bass.

edit.
Beyond actually resonating body parts there is apparently "audio-tactile synesthesia". Apparently not everyone has it so, if you have tactile feels or not might not be due to the playback equipment.
 
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#117
Personally, I don't like exciting the floor. Sound travels faster through solids than air and the floor vibrations that are re-radiated in the vicinity of the listener arrive before the direct sound from the speakers. I find it to be a very unnatural effect. Similarly, feeling direct vibrations through furniture before the direct sound from the speakers is unnerving

I'm also not keen on distortion to give the effect of extra bass. While I agree it can sound good, I still prefer the effortless bass sound of a high output, low distortion speaker system decoupled from the room

Cheers, Ralph
 
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#118
Talk of bass kick does often lead to a discussion of the math regarding low frequency sines waves. In reality, when you have heavy gated percussion, the rapid rise time requires speed from the woofer and even the amplifier. The issue becomes more focused on the envelope shape, and cone acceleration rather than the sine wave fundamental. We have designed club systems for high impact bass, and have used the lowest woofer mass that could handle the input power. The amplifiers were chosen for high slew rates and damping , because listening had proven that a fast rise time and an instantaneous damping response just sounded tighter. After long arguments with people who could run complex math solutions, fast still just sounded better. Just looking at gated bass on a DSO can make this quite intuitive.
 
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#119
Transistorlegacy said:
because listening had proven that a fast rise time and an instantaneous damping response just sounded tighter
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Would you say that the 'fast rise time' capability of the subs has to be faster than that required by the low pass filtered, slow rise time signal fed to it, or are you ascribing this property to the combined system where mids and HF produce the attack?
Further, what is your definition of 'high impact bass...' and what quantitative, measured differences are there comparing your systems and those which do not possess it?
The slew rate of amplifiers is of zero significance at low frequencies, and Class D amps are slew rate limited by the output filtering anyway; if an amplifier can reproduce 20kHz it will always be 'fast' enough to handle any low frequency signals.
What was the steepest rise time in V/microsecond you found in analysing the signals fed to the subs at full output?
 
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