I love this 😎
PEDOT-PSS is a very common name for hundreds or more variants in composition. Indeed there are named some known variants.
The use of #4 in the first list is very tricky I would say.
In the end you still have to find out that one solution that really works, sticks to the Mylar, is very thin to apply and lasts for years.
Took us years and hundreds of tests to get there. But I love the result that came back with AI. 👍
PEDOT-PSS is a very common name for hundreds or more variants in composition. Indeed there are named some known variants.
The use of #4 in the first list is very tricky I would say.
In the end you still have to find out that one solution that really works, sticks to the Mylar, is very thin to apply and lasts for years.
Took us years and hundreds of tests to get there. But I love the result that came back with AI. 👍
And it still would be a part of the solution. It would still be very different from the Quad solution with an electrostatic coating and a graphite layer.
It is the balance of ALL components involved that make a really good result with these speakers.
Having new (improved) stator PCB's made, is our latest addition to improve performance and reliability.
Back to the coating mystery after 40+ years 😳
What if we asked Chat GPT " what is the best coating for quad esk 63?" Just curious. Maybe it comes up with Wout31 formula LOL
LOL There is no such thing as "the best".
We found A solution, as others have too.
The only way of knowing how it sounds, is come and have a listen.
Judge for yourself.
We found A solution, as others have too.
The only way of knowing how it sounds, is come and have a listen.
Judge for yourself.
Would be interesting because I didn’t ask for the best coating but for a coating based on pedot pss. In fact I was surprised by the comprehensive reply.
Well I posted the question: "What is the best electrostatic coating for the Quad ESL-63 electrostatic speaker. How can I make it? And how to apply?"
The answer is very wrong IMHO, but hey that is just me.
The answer:
Best Electrostatic Coating for the Quad ESL-63
The best electrostatic coating for the Quad ESL-63 electrostatic speaker is generally considered to be Licron Crystal, an anti-static ESD (Electrostatic Discharge) coating. This coating has been widely adopted in the DIY community due to its favorable electrical properties and durability.
The answer is very wrong IMHO, but hey that is just me.
The answer:
Best Electrostatic Coating for the Quad ESL-63
The best electrostatic coating for the Quad ESL-63 electrostatic speaker is generally considered to be Licron Crystal, an anti-static ESD (Electrostatic Discharge) coating. This coating has been widely adopted in the DIY community due to its favorable electrical properties and durability.
Why Licron Crystal?
Licron Crystal offers a resistance range that is ideal for electrostatic speakers, typically between E7 and E9 Ohms. This level of resistance helps maintain the necessary electrostatic field while minimizing losses. Additionally, it has shown good longevity in practical applications, with users reporting satisfactory performance over many years without significant degradation.How to Make Licron Crystal Coating
Licron Crystal is commercially available and does not require complex preparation or mixing of ingredients. It is a ready-to-use product that can be purchased from various suppliers specializing in ESD products.- Purchase Licron Crystal: Obtain Licron Crystal from a reputable supplier. Ensure you are getting the correct formulation intended for use on electrostatic speakers.
- Prepare Your Workspace: Ensure your workspace is clean and free from dust and contaminants that could affect the application of the coating.
- Surface Preparation: Before applying Licron, make sure that the surface of the diaphragm or stator is clean and free from oils or residues. You may need to lightly sand or wipe down surfaces with a suitable cleaner.
How to Apply Licron Crystal
- Application Method: Licron can be applied using several methods:
- Spraying: Use an airbrush or spray gun for an even coat.
- Brushing: A soft brush can also be used if spraying equipment is not available.
- Wiping: For smaller areas, you can use a lint-free cloth to apply it evenly.
- Coat Thickness: Aim for a thin, even layer of coating on the diaphragm or stator surface. Multiple thin coats are preferable to one thick coat, as this helps prevent runs and ensures uniformity.
- Drying Time: Allow adequate drying time between coats as specified by the manufacturer’s instructions (usually around 30 minutes).
- Curing Process: After applying the final coat, allow it to cure fully according to product guidelines before reassembling your speaker.
- Testing Resistance: Once cured, measure the resistance of the coated surface using an ohmmeter to ensure it falls within the desired range (E7-E9 Ohms).
Conclusion
Using Licron Crystal as a coating for your Quad ESL-63 will provide excellent performance characteristics while ensuring long-term stability and reliability in your electrostatic speaker system.Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used
- DIY Audio Community Forums: These forums provide insights from experienced builders who share their knowledge about various coatings used in DIY electrostatic speakers.
- Licron Product Specifications: The official specifications and user guides from Licron offer detailed information about application methods and performance characteristics relevant to electrostatic coatings.
- Electrostatics Research Papers: Academic papers discussing electrostatics principles provide foundational knowledge on why certain coatings work better than others in maintaining optimal performance in electrostatic speakers like the Quad ESL-63.
I user Licron for refurbishing my ESLs. It was a pain to apply it. First of all, I should have cleaned the diaphragm with IPA. Second, I did not mask the perimeter. Third, I don't know whether to apply it on one side only or both sides. Spraying is not the best method to apply it (it goes everywhere and unevenly), a brush would have been better. It dried very quickly. Apart from these issues the result is better than I expected. No arcing, no reduced sensitivity after four years.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ExPN9ETsDey1xLe29
Edit: It was the Licron, not the Licron Crystal.
Mouser still lists it:
https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Techspray/1755-10S?qs=3BbbFz2r1QERbAXW81bXag==
But I bought it from a local webshop:
https://jovalolcsobb.hu/Antisztatikus-bevonat-spray-253ml-Techspray-1755-1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ExPN9ETsDey1xLe29
Edit: It was the Licron, not the Licron Crystal.
Mouser still lists it:
https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Techspray/1755-10S?qs=3BbbFz2r1QERbAXW81bXag==
But I bought it from a local webshop:
https://jovalolcsobb.hu/Antisztatikus-bevonat-spray-253ml-Techspray-1755-1
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I've used Licron Crystal on at least 14 pairs of speakers over the years. I had some cosmetic issues during my learning curve but regardless of what it looked like, it always worked perfectly.
I've always used the 8oz aerosol spray version and recommend the spray application method.
I will share these lessons learned on applying it:
I've always used the 8oz aerosol spray version and recommend the spray application method.
I will share these lessons learned on applying it:
- Licron Crystal runs away from fingerprints so solvent cleaning the diahramg is a must. I use denatured alcohol but acetone or IPA should be OK.
- There is no reason to extend a conductive coating beyond the periphery charge ring-- so mask the diaphragm edges to prevent overspray.
- If applied on a humid day, it will blush (turn cloudy), and the wetter it's applied, the more it blushes. Even so, it still works.
- Spray with the can held upright or angled not more than 45 degrees, otherwise it will sputter. This means that you will need to have the panel/diaphragm in a vertical or angled orientation, not laying down in horizontal orientation-- so that the spray fan is normal to the surface.
- Apply one coat "just wet". The Licron is very thin and goes on wetter than it appears-- mist on a light coat and it wets out fine but if you go the least bit heavy with the panel oriented vertically, it's going to run (but it still works).
- If you make a mistake (runs, blushing) it's no big deal.... just wipe it off with solvent and spray on another coat.
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When I asked chatgtp about EC coating wrong information came out as well.
Low Resistance: A high degree of conductivity is important in electrostatics, and EC-coating is designed to offer that
Resistance should be high instead ofcourse. ChatGtp should be taken with s grain of salt
Low Resistance: A high degree of conductivity is important in electrostatics, and EC-coating is designed to offer that
Resistance should be high instead ofcourse. ChatGtp should be taken with s grain of salt
Don't ask ChatGPT. Ask DIYaudio members who have done it. Searching old threads on this subject I found the most helpful.
Haha... i asked GPT
"-Where do i find the most detailed information about the coating of ESL-63 speakers?
The best source for detailed information about the coating of QUAD ESL-63 speakers is the official QUAD ESL-63 manual, which can be found online. The manual includes detailed instructions on how to apply the coating, as well as information about the types of materials and additives that should be used."
"-What type of dissipative coating does QUAD use to coat the Mylar membrane of QUAD Esl-63
The most common type of dissipative coating used to coat the Mylar of QUAD Esl-63 is a polyurethane-based coating. This type of coating provides good electrical performance and is also resistant to chemical and abrasion damage."
Im not sure... but in some cases GPT seems convincing but do not deliver even close results.
"-Where do i find the most detailed information about the coating of ESL-63 speakers?
The best source for detailed information about the coating of QUAD ESL-63 speakers is the official QUAD ESL-63 manual, which can be found online. The manual includes detailed instructions on how to apply the coating, as well as information about the types of materials and additives that should be used."
"-What type of dissipative coating does QUAD use to coat the Mylar membrane of QUAD Esl-63
The most common type of dissipative coating used to coat the Mylar of QUAD Esl-63 is a polyurethane-based coating. This type of coating provides good electrical performance and is also resistant to chemical and abrasion damage."
Im not sure... but in some cases GPT seems convincing but do not deliver even close results.
Well, it depends on panel geometry and design. SoundLab's have segmented sections of small area and use a low resistance coating. I am currently looking for a long lasting stable coating with around 100 kohm square. My forty years old A4 panels still have perfect coating, but the copper ring area is damaged.
Properly used ChatGtp is an excellent tool, but we have to make it (him???) direct, specific questions.
But you didn’t write what other materials are used besides polyurethane, polyurethane can create a tribo-pair with mylar, this is true, but this is not enough, you need another material that conducts voltage and another material to attach polyurethane to mylar, otherwise it will fly off😀.
hmm thats not the quad coating 🙂 might work well who knows 🙂 a conductive fluid that can be mixed with PU would be my go to. adhesion wise is great of PU also wetting is. but what will mix 🙂 and yeah the smells are not so nice. at least chat gpt came up with some materials like wetting agent and a conductive fluid i never heard off. although 250 euro for a tiny bottle is not so nice 🙂
To do what? Make conclusions instead of your own? How are you going to judge it correctness?
There are a few proven coatings and even developers of the latter. Present at that forum.
I said "properly used" - don't expect ChatGpt to do miracles or read our minds, guessing about our particular needs.
If we ask "Where do i find reliable information about the coating of ESL-63 speakers" we get a much better answer with adequate links:
For reliable information on the diaphragm coating of Quad ESL-63 speakers, several authoritative sources provide detailed insights:
If we ask "Where do i find reliable information about the coating of ESL-63 speakers" we get a much better answer with adequate links:
For reliable information on the diaphragm coating of Quad ESL-63 speakers, several authoritative sources provide detailed insights:
- The Quad ESL Website: This site offers comprehensive FAQs and articles about Quad ESL speakers. It specifies that the ESL-63 diaphragm coating has a surface resistivity between 10^7 and 10^8 ohms per square and is a type of carbon lacquer.
Quad ESL
- DIY Audio Community: An active forum where enthusiasts discuss various aspects of ESL speakers, including diaphragm coatings. While user-generated, the discussions can provide practical insights and experiences related to the ESL-63.
diyAudio
- ER Audio: A company specializing in electrostatic loudspeakers, offering repair kits and detailed information on maintaining and refurbishing Quad ESL-63 speakers. Their resources can be valuable for understanding and sourcing appropriate diaphragm coatings.
ERAudio
Video? Use foam brush. I have tried everything over the years but since beginning of 2000 i only use foam brush. I thought for a while that spray was a good thing (fast, and even surface..) But i get droplets in the air that contaminated the sides, and i always had to correct with a foam brush anyway. Some foam brushes is better than others.
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Did anyone try the 3M™ Adhesion Promoter 111 or similar in order to enhance the adhesion of coatings to the film?
I didn't but I doubt adding more mass is a good idea. You can try corona treatment, should be a topic on that here somewhere.
I tried all kind of additives. Not the specific 3M you mention. Some work, some dont. Depends on the rest of the coating formula. The more you add the more can go wrong as well because they may interfere. Keep it as 'simple as possible and stick (LOL) to what has proven to work.