Hello from the multiway section. This is my first time in another section of this forum.
As the title states I want your opinion. Data also accepted. Distortion measurements appreciated
Check out the pictures. What I am created is a ribbon tweet, planar mid, woofer studio monitor for my office. Ultra low distortion is my aim. I was hoping to find a driver to play from 800-40 hz at the bottom end. Beyond 40 I don't care much as I can't hear any lower than that and it won't play at an SPL level I would be able to feel. I have 0.38" cubed to play with. I can make the port as long as I want. Maximum diameter 7".
Other option is to seal up the woofer and try to integrate a subwoofer. In which case I would run a big cone. Probably a 15" sealed. Or make a ripole. Or make a push push. Not sure yet.....
Here's my options really:
1. Run an Epique 5.5 as my woofer. Run it from 800-38. Make the stand of this build the large port necessary to run this. Call it a day.
Cons of this (there are always cons): I've seen only one distortion measurement of this driver and it sits around 1-1.5%. The other drivers in this build hang out under 0.5%, nearer to 0.2%. This is going to make the woofer the driving factor of distortion. Additionally I would now have low frequencies shaking the mid and tweeter. I suppose a push push would make that go away but then I have double enclosure space to deal with....
2. Run a low distortion driver like the SB Acoustics Ceramic 6" and seal her up. That rolls off around 100 hz. Then I run a sub and attempt to integrate it. I've tried this with friends subs and it never quite matches their monitors correctly when changing volume (I have a lot of musician friends). It is VERY possible I just have no idea how to do it properly. In which case, I'd love if you'd point me towards something that explains the proper way to do it. Or just tell me. Either is fine. I'd run a big cone sub or fiddle with a ripole for fun.
3. Some other option or driver I am unaware of but you know about and want to tell me about.
I'll attach a couple of the simulated XOs (everything but the woofer is real measured data, the woofer is traced data) and a picture of the current enclosure design which is subject to change. The low end is not reflected in the XO currently.
Let me know your thoughts you beautiful bass heads!
As the title states I want your opinion. Data also accepted. Distortion measurements appreciated
Check out the pictures. What I am created is a ribbon tweet, planar mid, woofer studio monitor for my office. Ultra low distortion is my aim. I was hoping to find a driver to play from 800-40 hz at the bottom end. Beyond 40 I don't care much as I can't hear any lower than that and it won't play at an SPL level I would be able to feel. I have 0.38" cubed to play with. I can make the port as long as I want. Maximum diameter 7".
Other option is to seal up the woofer and try to integrate a subwoofer. In which case I would run a big cone. Probably a 15" sealed. Or make a ripole. Or make a push push. Not sure yet.....
Here's my options really:
1. Run an Epique 5.5 as my woofer. Run it from 800-38. Make the stand of this build the large port necessary to run this. Call it a day.
Cons of this (there are always cons): I've seen only one distortion measurement of this driver and it sits around 1-1.5%. The other drivers in this build hang out under 0.5%, nearer to 0.2%. This is going to make the woofer the driving factor of distortion. Additionally I would now have low frequencies shaking the mid and tweeter. I suppose a push push would make that go away but then I have double enclosure space to deal with....
2. Run a low distortion driver like the SB Acoustics Ceramic 6" and seal her up. That rolls off around 100 hz. Then I run a sub and attempt to integrate it. I've tried this with friends subs and it never quite matches their monitors correctly when changing volume (I have a lot of musician friends). It is VERY possible I just have no idea how to do it properly. In which case, I'd love if you'd point me towards something that explains the proper way to do it. Or just tell me. Either is fine. I'd run a big cone sub or fiddle with a ripole for fun.
3. Some other option or driver I am unaware of but you know about and want to tell me about.
I'll attach a couple of the simulated XOs (everything but the woofer is real measured data, the woofer is traced data) and a picture of the current enclosure design which is subject to change. The low end is not reflected in the XO currently.
Let me know your thoughts you beautiful bass heads!
Attachments
I have an unusual suggestion. These Pioneer woofers have the most gorgeous basslines that I have heard. I wonder if they can be made to work if given more volume via the stands
TS-D65C
I have the coax version and the most gorgeous dub playback. The Sly and Robbie meet the Paragon's album contain some beautiful dubs where the bass and lead with muted strings dance with each other and these Pioneers have delivered the best definition to date. I have auditioned that same tracks in the Hi-fi shops in Sydney and these do better. They also render my voice very well with karaoke
I have used them in car doors and sound bar. I also think they sound good enough to try to develop around
TS-D65C
I have the coax version and the most gorgeous dub playback. The Sly and Robbie meet the Paragon's album contain some beautiful dubs where the bass and lead with muted strings dance with each other and these Pioneers have delivered the best definition to date. I have auditioned that same tracks in the Hi-fi shops in Sydney and these do better. They also render my voice very well with karaoke
I have used them in car doors and sound bar. I also think they sound good enough to try to develop around
Can you stretch to an 8"-er? What about the Dayton RS225-8 which is supposed to have low distortion as one of its design goals?
https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/104/rs225-8-8-reference-woofer-8-ohm
Edit: Oops, just saw the 7" specification, sorry.
https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/104/rs225-8-8-reference-woofer-8-ohm
Edit: Oops, just saw the 7" specification, sorry.
Stuey,
I can actually stretch it to an 8 inch, however, it doesn't seem to help me since the box volume doesn't change.
If I redesign and separate out the box into mid, tweeter, and a wooden woofer box I can get more volume. That's obviously a very different aesthetic though
I can actually stretch it to an 8 inch, however, it doesn't seem to help me since the box volume doesn't change.
If I redesign and separate out the box into mid, tweeter, and a wooden woofer box I can get more volume. That's obviously a very different aesthetic though
The main distortion problem when running 40 to 800Hz is IMD, low frequency tones at high excursion make the vocal range sound like "gargling".
I think you probably mean 0.38 of a cubic foot, or 10.64 liters. A port with a diameter of 7" with such a small enclosure would end up being a transmission line.
Since ultra low distortion is your aim, using a subwoofer (or two or three) is the name of the game.
Sealed response is inherently better in terms of transient response compared to ported.
A sub driven to Xmax generally has 10% THD by definition.
In a subwoofer, most find second order harmonic distortion of under 10% difficult to detect.
The small Sd of the Epique 5.5 requires lots of excursion above Fb (box tuning frequency) which drives IMD up. Doesn't take much IMD to sound bad running up to 800Hz.
Our hearing's equal loudness contours require significantly more relative low frequency to "keep up" at lower volumes.
A 10 dB variance at 1kHz sounds twice (or half as loud) while a 5dB change at 30Hz does the same, and around 70dB is the minimum level most can hear at 30Hz.
110dB at 30Hz sound around equal loudness to 80dB at 1kHz.
Drop the level at 1kHz -20dB to a conversational level, ~60dB, and 100dB at 30Hz is required for equal loudness, a 10dB relative increase.
As you can see in the equal loudness chart, hearing "flattens out" at higher levels.
This tends to make musicians prefer higher levels than average.
It is another reason why inexperienced sound engineers mix "too loud"...
I have tuned my bi-amped home studio subs and monitors for flat response to ~25Hz at 80dB SPL with both the amplifiers gain set to full.
When playing at a lower volume (most of the time), I turn the monitor volume down by as much as 20 dB (compared to the subwoofers level), an easily variable "loudness contour".
The SB Acoustics Ceramic 6" looks like a good choice.
The very ugly and expensive Purifi drivers probably have an edge in terms of reduced IMD.
They really went after that aspect in the design of their drivers.
Mitch “Mitchco” Barnett's review alone would make me go for them, if my hearing was still good enough to notice subtle differences:
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...and-1et400a-amplifier-technology-review-r866/
In a sealed enclosure, four times the displacement (excursion) is required for each halving of frequency to maintain the same level.
I think if you limit the top cabinet to above ~80 Hz, driver choices become much less expensive, and clean sound is much easier to achieve.
Art
I have this issue with my current setup, however, I have built a two way I call The Dark Series which hits down to 35 hz and does not have this issue at all. I do not know what to make of that.
Yes, I do mean 0.38 cubic foot. Typo. I mean 7" diameter driver, not port. The port would only need to be 1.5-1.75" in diameter. The limited factor for SPL here is the mid planar which can only take 15 watts. The woofer, not matter how I run it, will only end up seeing about 50 watts. It only needs to in order to maintain the SPL level with the the other two drivers. They are quite sensitive.
Yes, I totally understand this. The difficulty is in implementing this properly. It is difficult enough to passively cross 3 drivers without odd cancellation effects happening near the crossover point. I know I can have an accurate system if I run it 3 way. I have not been able to integrate a sub properly. I have them in some of my vehicles but thats 100% lofi where I just throw some power at a heavy cone and call it a day.
This is why I'd rather use the 7" but I don't have the volume for that. The epique would be quite far from its xmax even at full tilt of the system. See graph. Remember, it can only take 40-50 watts before the mid maxes out and I will be listening to the system well below that. I do understand the bigger cone will be moving much further than a large cone.
I have never had this explained to me. This makes a lot of sense why low level near field listening sounds like it has no bass and when I turn it up I feel like it all levels out evenly. This is the second thing I learned today.
How are you integrating the sub and the monitors? Are you using an active filter? So a hybrid setup? Would you be willing to help me figure this out when the time comes to build the sub? Or, at least, point me towards some documentation or write up of how this is done?
I am quick to admit when I do not know things. With this I would need some help as I've never done it before. I've tried and failed at friend's houses but that is likely due to lack of knowledge, not from lack of ability to learn.
Yes, I think the SB will do well in that range. I can seal it if you'll help explain how I can integrate a sub.
I saw the Purifi, they have a face only a mother could love. Their specs nearly fit t he bill but not enough to accept that look or that price.
The SEAS Excel here is perfect. However, we are talking about $1000 for the pair. There are other things I'd rather do with $800 than spend it here, on this part of a cheaper build. I could spend it, though I think not using it as mid would be quite a waste of its abilities.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...nx-003-e0073-08-6-graphene-cone-woofer-8-ohm/
80 hz is totally doable. 100 hz would be best I think to cross with the SB.
Running a few sims I found I'd need a really big cone in a sealed sub to hit low. Do you have a recommendation?
Thank you for your response. It was very helpful. Hopefully, if you're willing to help me, I can learn more from you and how you managed to cross your sub accurately with your monitors.
I'm using a DBX Driverack PA to actively cross between Tannoy PBM 6.5 (ports sealed off) and a pair of 8" B&C mid-bass drivers in oversize boxes with an Fb ~22Hz. The alignment is using large amounts of parametric EQ to flatten the "subs", acoustically crossed ~60 Hz to the Tannoys. The amplifiers are Fossi Audio V3 for the Tannoys and subs, each has a single stereo volume knob, making it easy to adjust level while still running the DRPA at a fairly high level.
Sure.
These are about $300 used on ebay so definitely doable. I'm considering spending some extra bucks on a good sub like this Scanspeak that is on sale:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...s/scanspeak-discovery-26w/4558t-10-subwoofer/
Or even this thing:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/subwoofers/seas-extreme-l22roy2-08-8-subwoofer-8-ohm/
Or would you think I'd be better off running something with a bigger cone sealed?
I am leaning towards running the 8" version of the ceramic. It is on sale currently for the same price as the 6". Running it sealed has a nice roll off around the crossover point. Or is this not a good move?
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...oustics-sb23cacs45-8-8-ceramic-woofer-8-ohms/
There are better DSP units available now, the DRPA is pretty old.
With DSP, ported or sealed alignments are both viable, though ported is as much as +6dB more sensitive in the bottom 1/3 octave, so less power is required.
Larger cones are a better value, cost vs displacement.
If you are going to use subwoofer(s), I'd suggest looking for a driver with smoother response in the 80-800 range, since you won't need the excursion or low Fs.
That is what the 8" gives me. A 6" starts to fall apart around 200 hz. Not frequency wise but the distortion rises considerably.
The 8" is significantly better.
I cannot find any distortion measurements on the Satori 7.5". That looks like it has a little better motor but I'm not sure if it's worth double. I would have to see some sort of significantly lower distortion to toss away an extra $200 for a range I don't believe matters as much.