I'm running star quad cables (10' Hitachi SSX 104 LC-OFC). Splitting the 2 conductor pairs into LP and HP pairs still sounds better to me than running the 2 pairs in parallel.
You need two runs of star-quad to do it properly. As is you are comparing two non-ideal wiring schemes.
Yes perhaps response accounts for it, however I'm finding your answer almost ambivalent. I'd agree that 2.6dB around 600Hz may not be notably discernible on a speaker which is somewhat resonant, or one that is not balanced against the room..
..otherwise it could be a distinct problem.
I only need the 2nd run for bi-wiring. A single run is fine for single wiring. I only mentioned it because it sounds better even with the compromise.
Not really. From my point of view, science tells us you are the one with the huge confirmation bias.
That was the earlier question and I'd agree that simple EQ, to be more exact, needs to be separated before bi-wiring can be declared the cause. I get the impression we're betting against each other on this. Also to be fair, there may be further potential acoustic linear distortions in the mix than just the response.
However it's the fact that you'd question the audibility of the shown plot that makes me reluctant to entertain subjective views, based on my own subjective experience.
To me the problem is that measuring a DIFFERENCE gets conflated with trying to measure something that correlates to what we hear or think we hear-and further stirring listening tests into the mix. I suppose that is a methodology problem in a sense. We can measure down to what femtoseconds and nanovolt these days; if a component or wiring scheme or wooden puck makes a difference WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO MEASURE IT. Nobody does because it is not in anyone's interest, and/or it simply has not occurred to anyone. (Although in fact I think it was Stereophile that did some tests and found Supra Ply measured the best, there were indeed very small transient differences views on an oscilloscope.
Wait, how does that last part work? It's been a LONG time since I took circuit classes.
In EE Times 09.26.2007 an article "Loudspeakers: Effects of amplifiers and cables" Philip Newell and Keith Holland posit that
"Although each cable still receives the same voltage drive from the amplifier, the current passed by each cable is only that which relates to the frequency band that it is handling. As it is the current which gives rise to the linear and non-linear processes which are attributed to magnetic effects, the separation of the currents into two or more frequency bands can be beneficial. The high frequency signals are therefore unaffected by the heavy low frequency currents."
I would think these effects would be of small order and not easy to hear except at higher volume levels through very resolving speakers. And it stands to reason depending on the speaker/crossover impedance and output impedance of the amp.
Personally from some casual testing over time I've personally not heard huge effects, so just stopped worrying about it. It's the Bobby McFerrin approach to audio: "Don't Worry. Be Happy" 😎 (One time I definitely heard a clear difference in speaker cables, Mark Levinson CD and amp into expensive cables into Apogee Scintillas. Then replaced by ultra crazy wildly expensive MIT cable. An unmistakable difference in the violin sound! But neither was "better" and those speakers are like 1Ω or so, a quite extreme case).
Yes I know. I tried to redirect the thread once and have given up since it's become another 'cable wars' thread. However, I think it's relevant to look at this from the placebo angle to try and understand what the heck people are professing to hear in a 2-3 meter long cable running to a loudspeaker. Yes in a studio there are stacks of equipment and electrical rats nests of cables. It helps a lot to have star quad cables in this environment. In my opinion it's silly to use these cables in the average living room. I have a phasor guitar pedal that for some reason sends out a clear EE-rr EE-rr EE-rr or wooshey sound to much of my lesser shielded equipment and especially to a high gain guitar amp. I can't hear it through my 96db efficient speakers. I can't hear it in my living room on my surround system and I can't hear it in the listening room over my headphones. I don't think speaker cable can pick up that noise at any appreciable level that gets transmitted through the loudspeakers. Do loudspeakers make sound when the power amp is off? Mine don't. The noise has to leak in through the preamp/amplifier chain. I've cleaned up noise by cleaning up my cable clutter and checking my grounding. Keeping signal and power cables separated and at 90 degrees. Adding fatter speaker cables would have done nothing because they don't pick up RF or electronic noise at any appreciable level in the first place. That would be a good experiment, measure the noise on a two meter speaker cable when it's not plugged in to anything. I know I can pick up low voltage in wires from the mains power and probably from local radio stations, is this what people are hearing?
If the cables in bi-wiring are better then what makes them so? If one cable picks up noise or has inherent noise, then why wouldn't using two of them double the noise and halve the music signal? Maybe everyone should use two coat hangers? (just kidding) Why would a crossover react differently by having two cables running to it?
Yes, I'm skeptical mostly because I haven't heard a cable. Probably because the background silence in my listening room is too loud to hear effects that are -120-140 DB. This is like hearing a cat breathe. So, yes I think people who hear cables are simply justifying their purchase. They are totally falling for the placebo or better, snake oil, and that's OK. If it makes them happy spending money on nothing then more power to them.
Do we? Attached is a recent paper on measuring some characteristics of dacs. Maybe you already know about measuring that stuff?
It looks like the paper is from 2019 or so. Do you think before 2019 we didn't know how to measure everything, but now we do?
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Not sure if you have been paying attention. Do you know what "shared impedance distortion" is?
Also, your listening experience with your system is not the gauge to judge all systems by. Some systems are far, far more resolving of low level details and of spatial cues than what you have. What makes you so confident that can't be true?
Look, I am in Auburn, CA, a bit north of Sacramento. You are somewhere in the USA. If you want to visit here you would be welcome to do so. I think you will be amazed and entranced by things you have never heard before from a hi-fi system. Bring a CD, bring your favorite dac or preamp, whatever you want. I promise it will be quite interesting and educational.
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We have the know-how to see if even one person or a group of people (hopefully carefully chosen to represent a particular population) can repeatably and reliably over the probability of random chance hear a difference.
What I have yet to see is any study that I'd consider "reliable" show that any single person can reliably detect a difference let alone reliably state their preference for bi-wire vs. non bi-wire in a typical application.
Such studies are expensive (comparatively speaking), so I understand why they're not done at all, if not regularly done, or published. If they exist, I'd love to read them.
That's the trick with these discussions... one 'side' often says, we don't measure properly. The other 'side' says "but look at all the studies that show X change is inaudible" (to a segment of a population). There are plausible explanations from both 'sides'. Until someone forks over the moolah to actually do a proper study ... or show one that's been done, it's all conjecture and hand waving, IMO.
Me... from my POV as-stated, I'm not convinced I've ever reliably heard a difference. Could be the speakers chosen / wires chosen / beer consumed.
I will extend the same offer to you as I did to Arthur. Come visit and let's see what you can or can't hear.
I would truly love to do that. If I'm ever able and in your neck of the woods, I'll take you up on your gracious offer.
Edited to add - it would be a blast. With that said, I feel like the "naysayers" point to studies showing that some population of people can't hear "X". That's all fine and good, within a context. As an example, if I wanted to know if the "average joe" could ride X speed over 200 miles on a bicycle in a single day, and not a single participant even finished the ride, someone might misinterpret my results to be that NO ONE can ride 200 miles on a bicycle in a single day. The wrong population is selected for the wrong purpose. If we wanted to know if ANYONE can ride 200 miles at X speed on a bicycle, it may be best to choose from professional cyclists.
tl;dr - I'd LOVE to see if I could reliably hear some differences in a proper room with a proper set up. However, as mentioned, I'm far from "golden-eared".
Edited to add - it would be a blast. With that said, I feel like the "naysayers" point to studies showing that some population of people can't hear "X". That's all fine and good, within a context. As an example, if I wanted to know if the "average joe" could ride X speed over 200 miles on a bicycle in a single day, and not a single participant even finished the ride, someone might misinterpret my results to be that NO ONE can ride 200 miles on a bicycle in a single day. The wrong population is selected for the wrong purpose. If we wanted to know if ANYONE can ride 200 miles at X speed on a bicycle, it may be best to choose from professional cyclists.
tl;dr - I'd LOVE to see if I could reliably hear some differences in a proper room with a proper set up. However, as mentioned, I'm far from "golden-eared".
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True, I spend a lot less on my stereo than on my tractor. I still have a pretty good audio system, I admit it needs an upgrade. I do however build loudspeakers for clients that do resolve much better than mine, I sell them. Maybe one day I'll keep one. I also visit HiFi shops and pretend I'm buying, there are some amazing systems out there! My listening experience is every bit as relevant as yours.
Yes I know what "shared impedance distortion" is. I don't think it's relevant since we are talking about the audio band, not microwave communications. We aren't talking about MHz frequencies transmitted over many kilometers. The impedance spread is maybe 50 ohms, the distance is a negligible 2-3 meters, and the highest frequency is only 20Khz. This is a big part of the problem with audio wizards, they apply the physics of high frequency telephony to audio (which is pretty close to DC).
I'm somewhat surprised that someone in the loudspeaker cable development arena hasn't come up with waveguide transmission for their super tweeters. This would be an excellent application for bi-wiring, or bi-pipe-ing. Unfortunately at 20Khz it would be very large.
Here is the rub, if you can hear it then it should be able to be measured. After all, it's a cable, it's very simple and well understood physics. If you are hearing details they should be able to be measured, especially with today's measuring equipment that can measure beyond GHz. You say you hear a difference therefore the burden of proof lies on you (or the cable manufacturer) to prove your assertions.
Edit: I'm not saying you aren't hearing something, I just want some proof other than you saying so. My reason is that cable manufacturers have been taking us to the bank for years, and audiophiles should have been putting that money into better loudspeakers.
Yes I know what "shared impedance distortion" is. I don't think it's relevant since we are talking about the audio band, not microwave communications. We aren't talking about MHz frequencies transmitted over many kilometers. The impedance spread is maybe 50 ohms, the distance is a negligible 2-3 meters, and the highest frequency is only 20Khz. This is a big part of the problem with audio wizards, they apply the physics of high frequency telephony to audio (which is pretty close to DC).
I'm somewhat surprised that someone in the loudspeaker cable development arena hasn't come up with waveguide transmission for their super tweeters. This would be an excellent application for bi-wiring, or bi-pipe-ing. Unfortunately at 20Khz it would be very large.
Here is the rub, if you can hear it then it should be able to be measured. After all, it's a cable, it's very simple and well understood physics. If you are hearing details they should be able to be measured, especially with today's measuring equipment that can measure beyond GHz. You say you hear a difference therefore the burden of proof lies on you (or the cable manufacturer) to prove your assertions.
Edit: I'm not saying you aren't hearing something, I just want some proof other than you saying so. My reason is that cable manufacturers have been taking us to the bank for years, and audiophiles should have been putting that money into better loudspeakers.
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I agree. the average Joe used to listening to a Bose Acoustimass or Sony sound bar is not likely to hear any difference and quite frankly, probably doesn't care. Also, someone who has never been to a live performance of acoustic instruments won't know the difference either and may prefer the sound of a poor cable set up and lots of volume. I worked with a few tankers and artillerymen who would crank up the treble so that they could hear the music. The distortion was ear bleeding horrible!I would truly love to do that. If I'm ever able and in your neck of the woods, I'll take you up on your gracious offer.
Edited to add - it would be a blast. With that said, I feel like the "naysayers" point to studies showing that some population of people can't hear "X". That's all fine and good, within a context. As an example, if I wanted to know if the "average joe" could ride X speed over 200 miles on a bicycle in a single day, and not a single participant even finished the ride, someone might misinterpret my results to be that NO ONE can ride 200 miles on a bicycle in a single day. The wrong population is selected for the wrong purpose. If we wanted to know if ANYONE can ride 200 miles at X speed on a bicycle, it may be best to choose from professional cyclists.
tl;dr - I'd LOVE to see if I could reliably hear some differences in a proper room with a proper set up. However, as mentioned, I'm far from "golden-eared".
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