Goodness gracious, a cable thread almost a month old and 20 pages long and not yet shut down. Is that a record?
Bi wiring can also be approached in a different way. It is not a requirement to have two pairs of connections on the speaker.
Simply run two wires in parallel instead of one. And simply listen to see if it sounds different.
You can also check whether diameters are retained or doubled. And so on.
And as always: listen. Because:
diy audio;-)
Simply run two wires in parallel instead of one. And simply listen to see if it sounds different.
You can also check whether diameters are retained or doubled. And so on.
And as always: listen. Because:
diy audio;-)
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AI summary:
In a metal, the "grain structure electrical direction" refers to the alignment of the metal's crystal grains, which significantly impacts how electricity flows through the material, with the most efficient conduction generally occurring when the current flows parallel to the elongated grain direction, typically aligned with the rolling direction during metal processing; meaning that grain boundaries, which disrupt electron flow, are encountered less frequently in this direction.
Key points about grain structure and electrical conductivity:
In a metal, the "grain structure electrical direction" refers to the alignment of the metal's crystal grains, which significantly impacts how electricity flows through the material, with the most efficient conduction generally occurring when the current flows parallel to the elongated grain direction, typically aligned with the rolling direction during metal processing; meaning that grain boundaries, which disrupt electron flow, are encountered less frequently in this direction.
Key points about grain structure and electrical conductivity:
- Grain boundaries as resistance:
Grain boundaries between individual crystals act as barriers to electron flow, increasing electrical resistance compared to the interior of the grains 1, 2, 9]. - Rolling direction and grain alignment:
When a metal is rolled, the grains tend to elongate in the rolling direction, creating a preferred electrical conduction path along this axis 1, 3, 11]. - [Anisotropic conductivity:
Due to the grain alignment, metals can exhibit anisotropic electrical conductivity, meaning their conductivity varies depending on the direction of the current relative to the grain orientation.
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Citation?? It looks like a paper that cites other references, curious minds also want to see those.
You neglect the fact that as the electrons wiggle axially within the wire, they approach the grain boundaries with the same angle from each direction. Tis like railroad tracks, try trying to go over them at a shallow angle plants your face on the ground no matter which direction you approach from.
With typical metals such as copper, the mean free path between electron collisions and the metal lattice is down in the micron range. The grain boundaries add additional collision points.
We have used extremely pure (7 nines) copper that was annealed to the extreme to reduce the grains encountered so that the resistivity plummets in the cryogenic environment. (aluminum has the same effect, but we use this for heat conduction. bending also compromises aluminum thermal conductivity,)
The end result is that at room temperature we cannot measure a difference despite the huge grain size (and far fewer boundaries). We've tried to measure because wire this annealed cannot be bent without causing work hardening (more grains), so we cannot determine if the wire is good for us or not by simple measurement. We had to convince a customer that this concern could be an issue as nobody can measure it, they eventually (alpha-G project) adopted the use of a 4 mil (.004 inch dia) size superconductor for the coils.
The only way to measure it is to take it to 4.5 kelvin. And that is a very expensive thing to do.
The effect is called RRR, triple R. With the extreme purity and annealing, the mean free path of the electrons in the wire will increase, sometimes reaching 10 centimeters. The higher the triple R, the lower the resistance of the wire becomes as it gets down towards absolute zero.
The data supporting this can be found in the CRC handbook. I used it 25 years ago to model a 24 AWG wire that they wanted to use to carry a 300 amp half second exponential decay waveform, the small gauge needed to limit thermal transport from the room temperature of the feedthrough to the liquid helium. Fridge costs are quite high in this regime. Luckily we convinced them (LHC) it was not a good idea as this wire was part of the magnet safety system.
Simply trying to cull reasoning from published papers without regard to how it actually applies in the example spoken of serves no useful purpose.
John
You neglect the fact that as the electrons wiggle axially within the wire, they approach the grain boundaries with the same angle from each direction. Tis like railroad tracks, try trying to go over them at a shallow angle plants your face on the ground no matter which direction you approach from.
With typical metals such as copper, the mean free path between electron collisions and the metal lattice is down in the micron range. The grain boundaries add additional collision points.
We have used extremely pure (7 nines) copper that was annealed to the extreme to reduce the grains encountered so that the resistivity plummets in the cryogenic environment. (aluminum has the same effect, but we use this for heat conduction. bending also compromises aluminum thermal conductivity,)
The end result is that at room temperature we cannot measure a difference despite the huge grain size (and far fewer boundaries). We've tried to measure because wire this annealed cannot be bent without causing work hardening (more grains), so we cannot determine if the wire is good for us or not by simple measurement. We had to convince a customer that this concern could be an issue as nobody can measure it, they eventually (alpha-G project) adopted the use of a 4 mil (.004 inch dia) size superconductor for the coils.
The only way to measure it is to take it to 4.5 kelvin. And that is a very expensive thing to do.
The effect is called RRR, triple R. With the extreme purity and annealing, the mean free path of the electrons in the wire will increase, sometimes reaching 10 centimeters. The higher the triple R, the lower the resistance of the wire becomes as it gets down towards absolute zero.
The data supporting this can be found in the CRC handbook. I used it 25 years ago to model a 24 AWG wire that they wanted to use to carry a 300 amp half second exponential decay waveform, the small gauge needed to limit thermal transport from the room temperature of the feedthrough to the liquid helium. Fridge costs are quite high in this regime. Luckily we convinced them (LHC) it was not a good idea as this wire was part of the magnet safety system.
Simply trying to cull reasoning from published papers without regard to how it actually applies in the example spoken of serves no useful purpose.
John
Looks to me like the research to date is limited to what it is. Certainly directional resistivity relative to grain boundaries has been observed in small pieces of copper. That's about all we have so far. Directional resistivity in audio cable quality copper and or silver alloy wire so far as I know has not been studied (just many other things in audio have not be studied, yet it doesn't always keep people from claiming they already know about all possible conditions). However, it seems easy enough to do a thought experiment of wire being drawn through a die and forming asymmetrical grains according to the processing direction. If there can be grain asymmetry then could be that opens the door to the possibility of directional resistivity and or directional excess noise. Only a possibility though. Maybe you already know that die drawing can't produce any grain asymmetry in the drawing direction?
EDIT: regarding the AI summaries, unfortunately they don't usually give references. This one didn't.
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It could well be. Not that that says much about the merits, although it's always good to see John wheel out the heavy artillery (many thanks as always).
That's why I wrote to pull out the crossover components first ( post #7)
Would you put such thing ( the cable itself and the components) in an environment such as a woofer box?;
Would you put such thing ( the cable itself and the components) in an environment such as a woofer box?;
Ideally, no. In practice -depends on implementation as to whether it could make a difference, and if it does, whether it's worth the effort or insignificant enough that you decide you've got better things to spend your life doing. 😉 If it's your own design, you'd presumably be accounting for potential interactions in the design stage anyway.
Every single human on this planet uses wires that have been pulled through a die. Some believe the continuous casting process gets around this "supposed effect" . Everyone who has worried about directionality and tried to measure it have not been successful despite 10 digit off the shelf meters available now. I do not include some who did not control their measurement setup.
And yet, some audiophiles claim it is so. Others claim it has not been proven wrong, and my ears don't lie to me, others say it is and buy my wire to see for yourself.
The paper cited (thank you for the link) can be used to explain anisotropy between axial and radial conduction, but all the wires I've seen conduct from source to load along the axis of the wire.
john
hmm. Looks like I'm gonna hafta wait till the person I respond to times out.
And yet, some audiophiles claim it is so. Others claim it has not been proven wrong, and my ears don't lie to me, others say it is and buy my wire to see for yourself.
The paper cited (thank you for the link) can be used to explain anisotropy between axial and radial conduction, but all the wires I've seen conduct from source to load along the axis of the wire.
john
hmm. Looks like I'm gonna hafta wait till the person I respond to times out.
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Thanks, I count on you ...ideally, it was directed towards Cumbb's
Just to think -literally- out of the box
And not consider the speaker system as a black box, whatever it means, and historically has always been packed as a box...grills etc
At the moment I'm trying to wire 8 + 6 wires carrying AC for the heaters of my tube amp. I mean, is sitting on the table ( not bench) and my concerns are primarily the good conductance between the stages... you know, transformer, the wires...the fuse ( aaaaah), the switch, the chord...my objective is to make it look like a quantum computer.
Two months ago I saw in a tube thread a guy ( nothing to do, I cannot find it anymore...)that showed his under-chassis work, and the two (sub) groun ds, two big copper solid wires, caught my attention...
So that's a must, either
How to do it state of the art, that's my concern.
Speakers, crossover, cables, same-same but different, eh eh
Two months ago I saw in a tube thread a guy ( nothing to do, I cannot find it anymore...)that showed his under-chassis work, and the two (sub) groun ds, two big copper solid wires, caught my attention...
So that's a must, either
How to do it state of the art, that's my concern.
Speakers, crossover, cables, same-same but different, eh eh
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The suggestion to double up on wires drops resistance in half, and characteristic impedance as well. The lowering of the inductance will indeed alter the settling time of the system, and can alter ITD. I recommended years ago that 4 pairs of twisted zip would bring the impedance/inductance sufficiently low that the widely varying speaker impedance would have less effect, at little cost.
A wire carrying two sine waves of different frequencies will have an instantaneous dissipative component proportional to the (A+B)^2. So, A^2 + B^2 plus 2AB.
A biwire setup does not have the 2AB component of dissipation.
Note that the 2AB component integrates to zero power.
John
A wire carrying two sine waves of different frequencies will have an instantaneous dissipative component proportional to the (A+B)^2. So, A^2 + B^2 plus 2AB.
A biwire setup does not have the 2AB component of dissipation.
Note that the 2AB component integrates to zero power.
John
So, theoretically but more important, practically; which is the right wire length ( for normal 100 dB peaks? I'm asking... let's say domestic environment or dedicated room) and where should be (at which portion of the total length from binding posts to speaker terminals ( horror! Steel...) positioned the various components of the passive filters
I would recommend a length sufficient to reach the speaker terminals, but no shorter.😉
Seriously, if you worry about effects on ITD or IID, make both the same length and sleep well.
I just did a gig with one 90 foot cable, one 10 foot cable, and the image center was pretty good when I was ten feet from the speakers.
Course, the venue was a cube in shape, with every single surface having a reflection coefficient of 1. Once there were 150 or so people in the room, it tamed down a bit.
John
Seriously, if you worry about effects on ITD or IID, make both the same length and sleep well.
I just did a gig with one 90 foot cable, one 10 foot cable, and the image center was pretty good when I was ten feet from the speakers.
Course, the venue was a cube in shape, with every single surface having a reflection coefficient of 1. Once there were 150 or so people in the room, it tamed down a bit.
John
2/3 and 1/3 works good ( I guess I've never changed it, so...)
Same should go for speaker placement, I guess the famous 1/3 free space behind and 2/3 ( and more!!) for useful listening in front -rule' from someone famous, it can be applied too
Same should go for speaker placement, I guess the famous 1/3 free space behind and 2/3 ( and more!!) for useful listening in front -rule' from someone famous, it can be applied too
Probably we have talked about this enough for most readers. I would just make an observation that most 10 digit meters probably do some integration so an average value is displayed. Doesn't necessarily show if there is excess noise or fluctuating resistance (not saying there is, just to be clear). Just saying that sometimes people measure the wrong thing (it happens), then draw conclusions from that. IIRC, something like that already happened earlier in this thread. Its like if all someone has is spectrum analyzer, the phase is thrown out the window. And some other things can be missed too, such as signal correlated noise (which may show up in spectral line skirts and or noise floor changes). Not saying that sort of thing has been a issue in the recent conversation, it hasn't been an issue. Just saying as a general principle we need to be careful about jumping to conclusions when we don't really know for sure what we should be measuring. That's what I would like people to keep in mind.
Thread is closed.
If you disagree, feel free to DM me.
Don't expect a positive response.
We also have a rule about starting one with the same subject matter. That comes with consequences.
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