Good morning everyone.
I have just finished my no compromise subwoofer project composed of Faital pro 18XL 1800 thanks to your precious advice. So now I can do nothing but finish the job by also building the speakers.
I have a lot of work to do. At the moment, as a system, I have a Sabre Topping D90 III dac, a Topping Pre90 pre, an Audiophonics ET400A Purifi power amplifier and a Powersoft power amplifier with Loto DSP and 2 Litemod 2ch modules.
currently the towers (PL200 audio monitors) are moved by the ET400A purifier while the subwoofer by a single BTL powersoft module.
I could use 2 more channels to harmonize the subwoofer with the woofers in the project I will realize.
The project will be in pneumatic suspension. Speakers divided into medium-high and low sections. Woofers (2 per speaker) separated from the medium-high range. I am looking for high efficiency, precise, fast, dynamic components. In short, the best you can have while remaining within human figures. I am not very expert in transducers, so my research was very limited.
For the low end of the project I had considered the FaitalPRO 10FH520 16Ω x4 (16 ohm because they will be connected in parallel, but also because compared to the 8 ohm version these can be put in pneumatic suspension, while the 8 ohm ones unfortunately cannot).
Midrange FaitalPRO 6PR160 8Ω d'appolito configuration x4.
and for the high end the Beyma TPL 200.
The main doubts concern the integration of the Faital midrange with the Beyma AMT. From its MMS of 12.5gr (FaitalPRO) it seems that it can keep up with the Beyma.
But as I said before I am not sure because I am ignorant on the subject.
I chose the rest of the components left in Faital for a familiar sound problem, but I have no problem changing brands if there are better drivers that can work with high efficiency air suspensions.
I had thought of putting a wide band as the medium, limiting the band to the medium one. the fostex fe 168 ez sigma drivers. But I didn't know if it was a good idea.
I also have to choose whether to make a passive crossover filter or buy an active one. They say that the passive one is better.
The type of speaker must be a tower, trying not to exceed 1.30 meters in height. and I would like to stay flush with the transducers in width. While I can have margin in depth.
I have just finished my no compromise subwoofer project composed of Faital pro 18XL 1800 thanks to your precious advice. So now I can do nothing but finish the job by also building the speakers.
I have a lot of work to do. At the moment, as a system, I have a Sabre Topping D90 III dac, a Topping Pre90 pre, an Audiophonics ET400A Purifi power amplifier and a Powersoft power amplifier with Loto DSP and 2 Litemod 2ch modules.
currently the towers (PL200 audio monitors) are moved by the ET400A purifier while the subwoofer by a single BTL powersoft module.
I could use 2 more channels to harmonize the subwoofer with the woofers in the project I will realize.
The project will be in pneumatic suspension. Speakers divided into medium-high and low sections. Woofers (2 per speaker) separated from the medium-high range. I am looking for high efficiency, precise, fast, dynamic components. In short, the best you can have while remaining within human figures. I am not very expert in transducers, so my research was very limited.
For the low end of the project I had considered the FaitalPRO 10FH520 16Ω x4 (16 ohm because they will be connected in parallel, but also because compared to the 8 ohm version these can be put in pneumatic suspension, while the 8 ohm ones unfortunately cannot).
Midrange FaitalPRO 6PR160 8Ω d'appolito configuration x4.
and for the high end the Beyma TPL 200.
The main doubts concern the integration of the Faital midrange with the Beyma AMT. From its MMS of 12.5gr (FaitalPRO) it seems that it can keep up with the Beyma.
But as I said before I am not sure because I am ignorant on the subject.
I chose the rest of the components left in Faital for a familiar sound problem, but I have no problem changing brands if there are better drivers that can work with high efficiency air suspensions.
I had thought of putting a wide band as the medium, limiting the band to the medium one. the fostex fe 168 ez sigma drivers. But I didn't know if it was a good idea.
I also have to choose whether to make a passive crossover filter or buy an active one. They say that the passive one is better.
The type of speaker must be a tower, trying not to exceed 1.30 meters in height. and I would like to stay flush with the transducers in width. While I can have margin in depth.
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Good morning too! Unfortunately we have a rule on the language used. Please edit as a lot of us probably don’t read Italian that well…
Unfortunately the automatic translator always creates a lot of problems for me. Now is it read in English?
Sorry @Emanuele Del Piano, I personally don't read that kind of dense, compact text 😕 :
This presentation below is more attractive, clear and easy to read - at least for me 😎 !
"Good morning everyone.
I have just finished my no compromise subwoofer project composed of Faital pro 18XL 1800 thanks to your precious advice. So now I can do nothing but finish the job by also building the speakers.
I have a lot of work to do. At the moment, as a system, I have a Sabre Topping D90 III dac, a Topping Pre90 pre, an Audiophonics ET400A Purifi power amplifier and a Powersoft power amplifier with Loto DSP and 2 Litemod 2ch modules.
Currently the towers (PL200 audio monitors) are moved by the ET400A purifier while the subwoofer by a single BTL powersoft module.
I could use 2 more channels to harmonize the subwoofer with the woofers in the project I will realize."
But it's me, OK ? 🙂 🙂
T
This presentation below is more attractive, clear and easy to read - at least for me 😎 !
"Good morning everyone.
I have just finished my no compromise subwoofer project composed of Faital pro 18XL 1800 thanks to your precious advice. So now I can do nothing but finish the job by also building the speakers.
I have a lot of work to do. At the moment, as a system, I have a Sabre Topping D90 III dac, a Topping Pre90 pre, an Audiophonics ET400A Purifi power amplifier and a Powersoft power amplifier with Loto DSP and 2 Litemod 2ch modules.
Currently the towers (PL200 audio monitors) are moved by the ET400A purifier while the subwoofer by a single BTL powersoft module.
I could use 2 more channels to harmonize the subwoofer with the woofers in the project I will realize."
But it's me, OK ? 🙂 🙂
T
DSP are easier to prototype and achieve a desired result. The main problem with DSP is that the rapid obsolescence of any software means that in a few years you may be unable to update the settings. Unless you purchase repeated updates to the software to keep up with phone or PC op system changes. If you intend to use the product for many years it is possible to prototype with DSP or graphic equalizer, then try to achieve the same results with inductors capacitors and resistors.
Drivers installed very close to a square edge can suffer diffraction effects that can be difficult to equalize out. Rounded corners are best. Far away corners are not as bad as near ones.
Do you have simulation software available? Many potential problems can be studied in simulation for less money than experimenting with actual product.
I have some free software, nothing professional. The biggest problem is that I don't understand how they work. I often get lost. No matter how hard I try, I can't get ahead. Not even with tutorials. I tried vituix cad. But nothing to do.
Due to the obsolescence of my PC, I do not use sim software. I do not update the PC, sources are all from a place I do not wish to support with my $.
I take the 1 W 1 m response curves of the drivers, and plot them on one piece of graph paper. I then assume a simple 6 or 12 db/octave filter of the out band responses, and graph those responses. Then I add them up graphically. If one driver is more sensitive than another, I assume I can pad the sensitive ones down to the response of the insensitive ones with a series resistor. Once the tops of all the responses are the same level, I add the responses up graphically. The goal is a smooth flat response between the lowest and highest responses. Note wiggles at the top of a response of a driver is probably cone breakup, and probably should be filtered off. The dimensions of the box will add reflection sounds at the frequencies speedofsound/dimension. These resonance boosts can be reduced somewhat by smart braces, also box liner or stuffing. I like the idea of magic eraser pads made of melamine which may not produce toxic gasses when set on fire as urethane foam does. Cotton wool and jute can shed fibers which can get in the gap of the drivers.
Bass below 200 or 100 hz can be boosted by a reflex port, or by extra volume in excess of VAS with a sealed box. See David B. Weems Designing Building and Testing your own Speaker System the chapters on sealed and ported speakers. With sealed the size of the box divided by VAS determines something called "Q" which can predict bass response. As classical fan I prefer a Q of 0.7 which makes wood and metal instruments tracks sound like the real ones. Whereas kids just partying on the street prefer Q=1 or 1.2 for the "boom box" effect. Ported systems add the sound from the back of the woofer to the sound of the front of the woofer for more bass.
If you do not like programming, I suggest buying a 24 or 32 band graphic equalizer used, use the 2 channels with 2 channels of amp to design the curve for 2 drivers that you desire. Three channel speakers require 3 channels of equalizer and amp to balance the 3 drivers.
Any testing can be plotted with an omni mike, a mike stand, a sound interface as a pro mixer, and REW or ARTA software in a PC or laptop. I own .4 acres so I do my testing outside at 3 AM to avoid room effects. REW can do something called "gate" to cut off the room reflections before they come back.
Happy designing, building, testing. And later listening.
I take the 1 W 1 m response curves of the drivers, and plot them on one piece of graph paper. I then assume a simple 6 or 12 db/octave filter of the out band responses, and graph those responses. Then I add them up graphically. If one driver is more sensitive than another, I assume I can pad the sensitive ones down to the response of the insensitive ones with a series resistor. Once the tops of all the responses are the same level, I add the responses up graphically. The goal is a smooth flat response between the lowest and highest responses. Note wiggles at the top of a response of a driver is probably cone breakup, and probably should be filtered off. The dimensions of the box will add reflection sounds at the frequencies speedofsound/dimension. These resonance boosts can be reduced somewhat by smart braces, also box liner or stuffing. I like the idea of magic eraser pads made of melamine which may not produce toxic gasses when set on fire as urethane foam does. Cotton wool and jute can shed fibers which can get in the gap of the drivers.
Bass below 200 or 100 hz can be boosted by a reflex port, or by extra volume in excess of VAS with a sealed box. See David B. Weems Designing Building and Testing your own Speaker System the chapters on sealed and ported speakers. With sealed the size of the box divided by VAS determines something called "Q" which can predict bass response. As classical fan I prefer a Q of 0.7 which makes wood and metal instruments tracks sound like the real ones. Whereas kids just partying on the street prefer Q=1 or 1.2 for the "boom box" effect. Ported systems add the sound from the back of the woofer to the sound of the front of the woofer for more bass.
If you do not like programming, I suggest buying a 24 or 32 band graphic equalizer used, use the 2 channels with 2 channels of amp to design the curve for 2 drivers that you desire. Three channel speakers require 3 channels of equalizer and amp to balance the 3 drivers.
Any testing can be plotted with an omni mike, a mike stand, a sound interface as a pro mixer, and REW or ARTA software in a PC or laptop. I own .4 acres so I do my testing outside at 3 AM to avoid room effects. REW can do something called "gate" to cut off the room reflections before they come back.
Happy designing, building, testing. And later listening.
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thanks for the contribution. but before I get to what you said, I still have too much road to go. in the meantime choosing the transducers. and then finally I will be able to size the speakers. I have a microphone for measurements.
The dayton imm 6. while as a dsp I have the Loto by powersoft. where I can use the controls on the subwoofer and on the woofers. I would need something only on the mid-low range.
The dayton imm 6. while as a dsp I have the Loto by powersoft. where I can use the controls on the subwoofer and on the woofers. I would need something only on the mid-low range.
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Lots of people have favorite transducers. 90% of posters here love Troels Gravesen choices. If you want an evaluation of the transducers you like, post the Vas Fs Qt nominal impedance and sensitivity of each. Then post pictures of the frequency response at 1 w 1m of each from the datasheet. This can be cut from datasheet with screen grab. I may have suggestions but I am not going to do the dog work. Nobody else is chiming in yet. Personally being deaf above 14 khz I am not interested in 3 ways that can go to 20000 hz. I do find flat to 54 hz useful for piano organ and orchestral sounds. I find 2 ways 54-17.5 khz save $$$.
If you want a sealed box 3 way where the engineering is done, build a asathor: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/367215-asathor-jbl-4367-clone.html?highlight=asathor
If you want a sealed box 3 way where the engineering is done, build a asathor: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/367215-asathor-jbl-4367-clone.html?highlight=asathor
Not sure what you decided on or not.
If it's the TPL, there is literally hundreds of posts on here discussing the TPL 150/200, midrange drivers and horn or not.
Also they're weakpoints and modifications to make them better, like the 1,6khz resonance.
Before going forward i would start there.
Also do understand/research the effects of a large AMT crossed high to a midrange driver and it's effect on directivity.
Look up hoffmans iron law, understand that you can't have high efficiency, 'fullrange' extension down low and a small box. Even more so with a sealed system if no EQ is available.
Unless you use electronic EQ and then you pay for it with excursion , powercompression, distortion etc.
And how does the MMS directly matter at all?
The well made AMT's tend to have a very 'clean decay profile.
Maybe look for something similar in your midrange, if you want it to 'match'.
As for drivers we all have our favorite ones based on ones own set of priority for specific use cases.
Finding good 12" bass drivers for a 3 way, might be easier then the 10's if that is a compromises you are willing to make.
these are the datasheets of the transducers that seem excellent. Let's say that I took into account that the impedance remained fairly constant in the service range.
Attachments
I have listened to many speakers, and the ones I love are only AMT. My room is 5x5. The towers I own now are the monitor audio pl200 first series. For the low end I have 2 amplifiers and related proprietary dsp. So for the low end I have an 18-inch subwoofer cut at 100hz with a 12db decay. while a high pass at 20hz 12db.
the subwoofer works very well up to 100hz. So I don't need much push below 60hz. I need it to have body in the 60/1500 range but above all great speed. The midrange also has a working area very similar to the woofer. But it can reach up to 8000hz. Obviously I have read everything I could about the beyma tpl. I have no intention of making changes, nor of using it as a horn. The cut could also be feasible at 2000/2500 since the midrange can push up to 8000hz. Which however I would cut at 4500/5000 high pass. And 400hz low pass.
Through dsp and equalizer I can manage the woofers which in fact will be 10 inches.
Then I have another power amp that will move the mid-high part. This one however does not have dsp, if equalizer.
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The faitalpro-10FH520-16 looks pretty flat from 100 to 2 khz with sensitivity of 96 db. The faitalpro 6PR160-8 looks pretty flat from 150 hz to 5 khz with sensitivity of 95 db. The very expensive beyma TPL-200 looks +-5 db from 2 khz to 18 khz with sensitivity of 100 db. The tweeter has a 5 db boost 1800 hz to 5 khz which could be toned down a little. Having two 10FH520-16 would boost senstivity 3 db over the 6PR160-8 which means resistor padding the woofers, which is a bad idea. If you do not intend to run above 600 w AES, I find the 6PR160-8 unnecessary. Cross the 10FH520-16 to the TPL-200 at 1800 hz, with at least 12 db/octave low cut on the tweeter. A set of traps could pull the tweeter down 3 db from 1800 to 5 khz. A series resistor of 8 ohms would attenuate the current on the tweeter by half, or - 3 db. Perhaps 10 or 12 ohms series the tweeter could knock it down to 96 db. There should not be a lot of beaming of the 10FH520-16 at 1800 hz. WIthout the 6PR160-8 you could return to the two series woofer plan for 98 db woofers, and resistance pad the TPL-200 down to 98 db also.
If you do use the 6PR160-8 I would filter the wiggles above 2 khz off, and low cut at 800 hz. The cross of the 15FH20-16 would again be 800 hz. Woofer would be low cut at 100 hz since you run a sub amp. 54 hz is only 10 db down so if you build a big enough box to boost the bass you could low cut there and turn off the woofer most of the time. However woofer AES 120 w would limit the size of party you could host. You would have to study cone movement at the lower frequencies to not exceed 5 mm Xmax at maximum power. Two woofers with AES 240 w is more party capable, although a 5 m square room is not a huge venue.
Do not forget to include a tungsten bulb of 1 ohm or so cold in the tweeter resistance, to prevent damage from pops or amp clipping.
Over here a Eminence N314T-8 is with horn about half the price of the Beyma and does not need as many correction components (6?) to tone down the wide 5 db midrange excess.
If you do use the 6PR160-8 I would filter the wiggles above 2 khz off, and low cut at 800 hz. The cross of the 15FH20-16 would again be 800 hz. Woofer would be low cut at 100 hz since you run a sub amp. 54 hz is only 10 db down so if you build a big enough box to boost the bass you could low cut there and turn off the woofer most of the time. However woofer AES 120 w would limit the size of party you could host. You would have to study cone movement at the lower frequencies to not exceed 5 mm Xmax at maximum power. Two woofers with AES 240 w is more party capable, although a 5 m square room is not a huge venue.
Do not forget to include a tungsten bulb of 1 ohm or so cold in the tweeter resistance, to prevent damage from pops or amp clipping.
Over here a Eminence N314T-8 is with horn about half the price of the Beyma and does not need as many correction components (6?) to tone down the wide 5 db midrange excess.
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Since this is your first speaker, I’d suggest keeping it simple…….a 3 driver 3 way is easier than an WTMTW and you won’t have any issue with getting a single lower woofer to blend with a single subwoofer……if you do a WMTMW, that top woofer will be a stretch at 60hz.
Sounds like you like precise midbass………nothing IMO does that better than a 15” woofer. The Faital pro 15PR400 would be my recommendation. In a sealed box of around 2.5 cuft in a room your size, the f3 point with a simple 1st order high pass will give you a combined 3rd order that will work very well with your sub.
If you decide to move up to a 15” midwoofer ( I hope so…..they move so much air that midbass from drums sounds so life like) now an 8” midrange isn’t out of the question and there’s something about 8” mids……the point source perceived size is perfect…..not too small and not to big. They also match better in efficiency to a 15” midwoofer in the 97-99db range.
You don’t need the TPL200 in a room your size…..,the TPL 150 will be fine and it has better vertical dispersion so your first lobe mate with the midrange won’t be so deep. It’s also a closer sensitivity match so less components in the crossover to pad it down.
Sounds like you like precise midbass………nothing IMO does that better than a 15” woofer. The Faital pro 15PR400 would be my recommendation. In a sealed box of around 2.5 cuft in a room your size, the f3 point with a simple 1st order high pass will give you a combined 3rd order that will work very well with your sub.
If you decide to move up to a 15” midwoofer ( I hope so…..they move so much air that midbass from drums sounds so life like) now an 8” midrange isn’t out of the question and there’s something about 8” mids……the point source perceived size is perfect…..not too small and not to big. They also match better in efficiency to a 15” midwoofer in the 97-99db range.
You don’t need the TPL200 in a room your size…..,the TPL 150 will be fine and it has better vertical dispersion so your first lobe mate with the midrange won’t be so deep. It’s also a closer sensitivity match so less components in the crossover to pad it down.
maybe i could put a 15 woofer. the problem arose when i mounted the subwoofer. it literally took up almost all the available space. so putting 15 is not physically possible.
10 inches is my maximum possible. To keep the frequency response uniform i could use the Tpl 150 with 2 midranges and 2 woofers. in this way i would have at most 1db difference between the various components. and i would not have to add things to the crossover. also because having the dsp in the low range, i could compensate by increasing it.
10 inches is my maximum possible. To keep the frequency response uniform i could use the Tpl 150 with 2 midranges and 2 woofers. in this way i would have at most 1db difference between the various components. and i would not have to add things to the crossover. also because having the dsp in the low range, i could compensate by increasing it.
With the narrowness of your space, and the sub covering to 100 hz, I would put in 2 6PR160- and one TP150. Forget the 10FH520-16, you can get to 100 hz by running the box size up higher than VAS. Two 6PR160-8 gets to 98 db 1 w 1 m and TP150 is 99 db already. The TPL150 doesn't have that 5 db rise between 2000 and 5000 hz to pad down. Your mid amp is 4 ohm capable isn't it? Crossover at 4 or 5 khz. To avoid the lack of dispersion of the 6PR160-8 you can angle the 2 of them left and right 20 deg from the centerline of the TP150.
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The idea of having a 2-way could be a nice solution.
However, I don't know if I would have a sound that is too thin and not very present.
I really like having dynamics and SPL at will.
YES, my purifi ET400A power amp can easily drive 4ohm.
Providing 400W per channel.
However, I don't know if I would have a sound that is too thin and not very present.
I really like having dynamics and SPL at will.
YES, my purifi ET400A power amp can easily drive 4ohm.
Providing 400W per channel.
If you like a fat sound, you should buy a graphic equalizer. Boost 500-2000 hz 3 to 6 db.
I like an accurate sound. I have played some of the instruments on the recording and like the speakers to sound like the instruments. OTOH some popular vocalists have their voices pre-emphasized on recording and stage and fattened with reverb or other effects. I heard one such vocalist talking to her band members on the path from motorhome to stage.
Audacity program on a PC can do both equalizer curve and various reverb or other effects. Use the blue 1/8" phone jack in, green out.