rfbrw,
IMHO, the clocks are better sounding than my Andrea Mori clocks and my Iancanada clocks. I did have to design my own squaring circuit though. Prior to that the Iancanada clocks were probably the most listenable. Multiple listeners have heard the difference, which is quite interesting. Soundstage is better than I have ever heard before. Depth is the best we ever recall having heard (using standard test recordings which are challenging to reproduce well spatially).
IMHO, the clocks are better sounding than my Andrea Mori clocks and my Iancanada clocks. I did have to design my own squaring circuit though. Prior to that the Iancanada clocks were probably the most listenable. Multiple listeners have heard the difference, which is quite interesting. Soundstage is better than I have ever heard before. Depth is the best we ever recall having heard (using standard test recordings which are challenging to reproduce well spatially).
Who are "we" ? I'm a little careful sending out DACs for testing, after I loaned out a dac2541 and newer got it back.... But I do currently have one of my dac1221 available in the US.... Send me an email with info.... Any evaluations should be public, but diyaudio is not really a review site....
Are you saying that Delta - Sigma DACs have inherently harsh sound? I thought the harshness can be attributed to the resolution as well as the quality of the - output stage but I don't really know digital. Are there any measurable parameters that can predict harshness of the sound?
Are you saying that the harshness that I hear is attributed to sigma - delta topology? I thought it was attributed to poor implimentation of output stage but I know very liitle about digital.
Not necessarily, but the word "modulator", I my opinion collide with good sound, the delta sigma modulators have these side effects.... They measure nicely with steady signals, but once they're feed music the all sound different.... Although they're getting better.... While R-2R DACs just convert the digital signals directly to analog signals, one to one, no processing.... R-2R DACs are known to be more musical, more analog.
Other people have different opinions.
Other people have different opinions.
IMHO harshness can be caused by various factors. Probably the easiest one to measure would be higher order steady state (PSS) HD/IMD. However, dac chip manufacturers have proven good at fixing the ones that are easy to measure. For some people, ESS Hump Distortion sounded harsh, but whether or not those people were hearing anything actually audible remains controversial in the opinion of some other people.
I had a Schiit Modi which worked ok until it failed. Now I have Topping DX3 Pro+ which AudioScienceReview claims is excellent.
... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pping-dx3-pro-review-dac-headphone-amp.27148/.
It is satisfactory for me. My only concern is that it is a sealed unit that runs hot. Some day I must open it to devise a remedy because heat is the enemy of electronics.
Experiments on Tidal leads me to believe that playback gear generally exceeds requirements. The enjoyment of music is limited by the recording performance and original mastering.
...https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/the-24bit-delusion/ (blog promotes the Mystique EVO DAC)
My understanding is that R2R DACs are less resolving than D-S ones but they mask the harshness with the second and third harmonics by making essentialy tone softer. Is it correct? Vinyl is inheretently distorted media so I guess I can live with the distortion in digital as long as it does not make my ears bleeding. I was actually considering Schiit R2R DACs.
I talked in general terms about the differences in sound before in another thread:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/return-to-zero-shift-register-firdac.379406/post-7672187
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/return-to-zero-shift-register-firdac.379406/post-7672216
Also some comments from another member:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/return-to-zero-shift-register-firdac.379406/post-7672349
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/return-to-zero-shift-register-firdac.379406/post-7672352
Now I will say that I learned some things about the sound of Andrea's dacs since then, some of why they sounded the way the did, but that's another subject.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/return-to-zero-shift-register-firdac.379406/post-7672187
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/return-to-zero-shift-register-firdac.379406/post-7672216
Also some comments from another member:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/return-to-zero-shift-register-firdac.379406/post-7672349
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/return-to-zero-shift-register-firdac.379406/post-7672352
Now I will say that I learned some things about the sound of Andrea's dacs since then, some of why they sounded the way the did, but that's another subject.
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I 100% agree about mastering problem of digital sources and this is why I prefer outdated, deffective and inconvinient media -vinyl but I still like to use streaming when dont have time for critical listening.
80% of electronics failures is related to overhetaing. I conform it as I was involevd and still trying to develop thermal inetrafce material for high power devices.
You might be surprised at what digital can sound like here 🙂
But the system is pretty different from what most people use.
But the system is pretty different from what most people use.
I always had some concerns about using simple sinusoidal signal for the test as from my experience with some analog gear that it can sound properly with simple music but once you feed some complex musical signal with a lot of modulations the same component will sound awful. My experience with SMSL and Topping tells me that the conventional DAC testing methodology has a serious flaw. When it comes to music, I trust my ears rather than my eyes. Would it make more sense to feed a modulated signal and read it with a spectrum analyzer?
My other question is how R2R DACs perform when it comes to sound stage? I think that to get sound stage right one has to minimize phase distortion. My thinking is that the phase distortion is introduced in filters and since NOS R2R does not use filtering it should not introduce phase distortions..
My experience with multibit (not necessarily R2R topology) DACs is that to get relatively precise imaging in NOS a reconstruction filter is required. Without it the images are somewhat blurred in space. The reconstruction filter does introduce significant phase distortion.
rs
I wander how did you solve the digital problems and especially compression?
I started my career working in optoelectronics and CD media in my books supposed to be much more advanced than vinyl. I actually have some LPs mastered from digital tapes and I did not realize it until the owner of the label told me that he’d transferred his analog tapes to digital tapes in the 80th. I still believe that properly implemented digital should sound better than vinyl. In the past when I had listened to digital only I made my music sound more analog by using electroststats and planar magnetics (not a big fan of the last). It helped with the tone and allowed to get the best of the meager sound stage but it still was not very 3D
I wander how did you solve the digital problems and especially compression?
There are various issues being discussed here, such as phase distortion, whereas the real issue for lateral localization is phase coherence between channels. Two different things.
Also some discussions regarding the dimensional sound of vinyl, versus the sound of some digital that sounds flat and over-compressed, versus really good digital which can be very dynamic and quite 3D. IMHO there are multiple reproduction causes and effects involved, so we would kind of have to take them one at a time. Its getting late here, so maybe I will check back in tomorrow.
Also some discussions regarding the dimensional sound of vinyl, versus the sound of some digital that sounds flat and over-compressed, versus really good digital which can be very dynamic and quite 3D. IMHO there are multiple reproduction causes and effects involved, so we would kind of have to take them one at a time. Its getting late here, so maybe I will check back in tomorrow.
I may be wrong but I think the reason we observe a soundstage effect is that and the distances from different sound sources (piano, drums…) on the stage is different and therefore it takes different time for the signal s to travel to the mic. I think it’s only timing that creates perception of sound stage and phase of the signal correlates with the timing. Now if our components are proned to dispersion then the signal with different frequencies will experience a phase shift and it will affect the sound stage.
it is all relative. The price of a decent DAC was $1000+ 20 yeas ago. Considering the improvment in processors and controllers and their cost I would expect a siignificunt cost reduction but if we factor in real inflation and labour cost I think $500 is not that expensive for a decent DAC but I still would expect it to be cheaper from China.In spite of reviews and measurements I had very serious doubts when I was buying $100 DACs. Good audio gear is not cheap.