With such strong confirmation bias it is clear that without proper controls the results of your test are known already.
My suspicion is based entirely on past listening experiments. So, for me, I suppose so. I wasn’t proposing that I conduct such an experiment, however, I was only responding the a comment/question. As for you, you have a null/negative test result confirmation bias, don’t you? If you don’t believe there is a subjective difference, rather than remaining open-minded, you likely will not hear a difference. Your bias isn’t even based on prior directly relevant listening experiments, as would be mine, is it?
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No, I have never said that subjective differences do not exist. However I don't see much value in subjective listening tests other than for the test subjects.
I think you are in no position to judge my listening experience.
And I didn’t judge it. If you’ll read more carefully, you’ll note there’s a question mark at the end. Which is far less self-confident than were your assertions to me, yes?
You’re still missing the point of my post, entirely. Even after I explicitly stated it in post, #642. I was addressing the original question of the thread, about how one might detect a difference among two DACs which, essentially, measure the same in the usual audio parameters. I was not proposing that I would conduct such an experiment, and report the results myself. So, whether, or not I have confirmation bias is completely irrelevant. It was intended only as a thought-seed toward an area which I suspect could be fruitful, should anyone, without confirmation bias, wish to experiment for themselves. Enough, about this.
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There's been a lot of unnecessary tightening here. These kinds of questions are just for fooling around.
And you are missing my point entirely. The test you described is such the proper controls are quite difficult to accomplish. "Blind" test would require another person that switches between setups and near-instant switching is next to impossible. And without proper controls the test result is highly depending on confirmation bias.
BTW everybody has confirmation bias and the only way to mitigate it is with proper controls.
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If you ask someone which is better, a Big Mac, or a Quarter Pounder? And they answer, "I don't know. Sometimes I order one or the other so I don't get bored with always the same choice."
Where is the confirmation bias there?
Where is the confirmation bias there?
Burgers have little to do with listening tests. But that person has already tasted those burgers and bases his/her opinion on that prior experience.
So, their opinion is, "I don't know." Is their confirmation bias then, "they don't know if one burger is better than the other?"
The point I am trying to get at is that some people just don't care about the outcome of a certain question. Other times people already have an opinion or belief they would like to keep, or they are hopeful for a certain outcome.
Also, down near thresholds people can start to convince themselves they are perceiving something (which is not actually real), or maybe to the opposite effect that there is nothing to perceive (when something real actually is there to perceive). That's true for listening tests, as well as for difficult visual discrimination tasks.
Therefore, I am skeptical of there being a simple rule of thumb that always applies.
The point I am trying to get at is that some people just don't care about the outcome of a certain question. Other times people already have an opinion or belief they would like to keep, or they are hopeful for a certain outcome.
Also, down near thresholds people can start to convince themselves they are perceiving something (which is not actually real), or maybe to the opposite effect that there is nothing to perceive (when something real actually is there to perceive). That's true for listening tests, as well as for difficult visual discrimination tasks.
Therefore, I am skeptical of there being a simple rule of thumb that always applies.
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Regardless the impact of confirmation bias can be mitigated by use of proper controls if anything resembling objective is the goal. Without proper controls the result is subjective and leaves doubts about confirmation bias. And if there is prior knowledge about confirmation bias (as in the case discussed above) subjective results are of very limited value.
I would agree that (almost *) everything audible in a DAC would have to make a difference in electrical signals and thus be at least theoretically measurable. But some things would at least be easier to measure (and in a more "standard" way) inside the DAC, instead of needing to derive it from subtle permutations in output signal level. E.g. if I want to understand numerical precision of a digital filter, I rather would digitally analyze it.
* Excluding unlikely things like fan noise, transformer vibrations etc. 😉
Understood. My concern was more as to how our non-technical OP might interpret your remarks. Some of what you said about analog output measurements could potentially be interpreted in a way as seemingly confirmational relative to Amir's unproven theory.
Does it really bear pointing out that a proper listening test requires control in order to be scientific? Everyone knows that. This is a hobbyist site, not some AES approved test methodology discussion forum. A scientific listening test requires special equipment, many test participants and/or time. I’d guess that most every listening test (in other words, auditioning/enjoying our systems) we engage in is necessarily ad hoc, alone and at home. We’re not aiming to submit peer reviewed papers for publication. We’re simply trying to obtain more satisfying reproduction for our own enjoyment. We’d get nowhere waiting to assemble the resources to produce a scientifically valid subjective test of every circuit tweak we were curious about. Such would be immensely valuable, but it’s simply not remotely practical. We know that whatever we individually conclude at home, working on our own systems, is not scientifically valid.
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Hi fi isn't life and death, it's MUCH more important than that.
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