Thanks, very good advice.
So, I can either remove the planar and use a full range driver good to 100hz.
Or, I can try to find 10" woofers, likely not subwoofers, and cross much higher to allow an easier passive system.
So then I'm curious about this driver then:
https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-10PT-8-10-Paper-Cone-Prosound-Woofer-8-Ohm-292-804?quantity=1
I'll see if I can get it to behave reasonably well to 30hz or so, with several of them. I can do 4 of these, 2 on the front, 2 on the back of the tower, opposed arrangement.
4 x GRS 10PT woofers
80w
4 ft^3 net
30hz tuned
This can work, if I can get a crossover to flatten it a little better, since it has that big knee under 60~70hz. Or maybe these are also just not gonna work. I'll keep looking at options, 8" to 10" in size.
Very best,
To move forward quickly and seeing your budget is around 54 dollars for the GRS subs.
I would just use 2x Dayton DC250-8 10" classics
The Fs is 24 Hz and Qts .38 is rather friendly for a fair sized box
SPL of around 88 dB would be rather easy to match the planar.
2x Combined the total xmax and cone area would be rather darn good bass.
I would just use 2x Dayton DC250-8 10" classics
The Fs is 24 Hz and Qts .38 is rather friendly for a fair sized box
SPL of around 88 dB would be rather easy to match the planar.
2x Combined the total xmax and cone area would be rather darn good bass.
The GRS woofers you link are also good for projects.
They are tight suspension pro sound drivers.
Tradeoff is 47 Hz Fs. Not subs for the most part little bass.
The classics get down to Fs 24 Hz and with im guessing a standard QB3 or C4
The reflex or port tune will also be around 24 Hz not 50 Hz
Much more bass since this is home use the sensitivity is fine to match the planar.
And transients will be good down to 30 Hz not 50 Hz like a high tuned pro sound.
They are tight suspension pro sound drivers.
Tradeoff is 47 Hz Fs. Not subs for the most part little bass.
The classics get down to Fs 24 Hz and with im guessing a standard QB3 or C4
The reflex or port tune will also be around 24 Hz not 50 Hz
Much more bass since this is home use the sensitivity is fine to match the planar.
And transients will be good down to 30 Hz not 50 Hz like a high tuned pro sound.
Very interesting thanks!
Let's look at 4 of these in a 4 ft^3 30hz tuned bass reflex:
Hrm, drops off early. Needs a huge volume for 4 drivers to tune lower. Might need to drop to 2 drivers. But then xmax limits...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here's 2 of these Dayton drivers, to reduce volume needs of the cabinet to get a flatter response to 30hz. Suffers xmax of course.
2 drivers:
This might work ok. It will never even really see 80w. It will see 50w probably in reality. So this could be functional.
I just wish I could get a nice natural peak to 30hz or so. Maybe I should explore 8's?
Very best,
Hrm,
I wonder if these 8's would make it to 700hz and be suitable?
4 of these would be pretty good and get to my goals, if it can actually cross at 700hz or so.
Very best,
I wonder if these 8's would make it to 700hz and be suitable?
4 of these would be pretty good and get to my goals, if it can actually cross at 700hz or so.
Very best,
2x per side the planar sensitivity cant match 4x woofers.
Keeping designs realistic is essential.
And transfer functions mean nothing, it is just a filter alignment.
And proper alignments need to be meet.
WinIsd default settings for leakage or ( Ql ) is too high 10
it needs to be set for 7 to 8 for a ported enclosure.
Drivers require specific alignments
I'll explain quickly as possible for vented. There is no assumed magic with ports.
There is no wires to the port, port energy comes from the driver.
When ports conduct the cone travel reduces.
This is classic bain and misunderstanding of ported. Transient response is poor above tuning.
The cone movement is reduced above tuning, and is very little at resonance.
Below resonance the cone unloads, huge movement, pure leakage, high distortion
Transient and accuracy is reduced above tuning, At resonance gone.
One speaker tuned at 40 Hz compared to a speaker tuned 27 Hz
Without a misleading graph I can instantly tell which one goes " lower"
and will do so with actual accuracy.
Already in transfer function things are obvious.
Looking at reality I have marked where the cone movement is becoming restricted already for the GRS.
Port conduction is starting, and transients are = Ending.
As you can see when it reaches full resonance
with little cone movement (yellow line)
The Dayton still has full accurate cone movement, port hasn't even started yet
By the time the GRS is UNLOADING the Dayton is just starting to conduct the port.
That is the difference between 40 Hz tuning compared to 25 Hz tuning.
It instantly tells you which one is actually making accurate bass the lowest.
Hench from looking at the datasheet. The difference between 47 Hz Fs and 24 Hz Fs
I already knew which one will hammer out good bass down to a real 30 Hz.
Not poofy high tuned port.
Keeping designs realistic is essential.
And transfer functions mean nothing, it is just a filter alignment.
And proper alignments need to be meet.
WinIsd default settings for leakage or ( Ql ) is too high 10
it needs to be set for 7 to 8 for a ported enclosure.
Drivers require specific alignments
I'll explain quickly as possible for vented. There is no assumed magic with ports.
There is no wires to the port, port energy comes from the driver.
When ports conduct the cone travel reduces.
This is classic bain and misunderstanding of ported. Transient response is poor above tuning.
The cone movement is reduced above tuning, and is very little at resonance.
Below resonance the cone unloads, huge movement, pure leakage, high distortion
Transient and accuracy is reduced above tuning, At resonance gone.
One speaker tuned at 40 Hz compared to a speaker tuned 27 Hz
Without a misleading graph I can instantly tell which one goes " lower"
and will do so with actual accuracy.
Already in transfer function things are obvious.
Looking at reality I have marked where the cone movement is becoming restricted already for the GRS.
Port conduction is starting, and transients are = Ending.
As you can see when it reaches full resonance
with little cone movement (yellow line)
The Dayton still has full accurate cone movement, port hasn't even started yet
By the time the GRS is UNLOADING the Dayton is just starting to conduct the port.
That is the difference between 40 Hz tuning compared to 25 Hz tuning.
It instantly tells you which one is actually making accurate bass the lowest.
Hench from looking at the datasheet. The difference between 47 Hz Fs and 24 Hz Fs
I already knew which one will hammer out good bass down to a real 30 Hz.
Not poofy high tuned port.
For a 10" sub, look at the Dayton Audio SD270A-88, it extends much higher than the GRS. @wolf_teeth just used it in a two-way, so blending it with a full-range should not be too challenging.
Another interesting driver!
Seems to go up to 1khz no problem.
4 ft^3
30hz
80w
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The 250 classic vs the 270 in the same enclosure:
Basically the same in this volume and tune.
Same excursion. Similar in many ways.
But the 270 seems to have more room to go higher frequency, so maybe it will be more suitable for a 700hz crossover?
Very best,
I could also just switch from the planar wide band to a full range driver with more bandwidth.
Like a MarkAudio CHN110:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-fullrange/markaudio-chn110-silver-6.75-full-range/
And mix this with two of the GRS10SW4HE's around 120~200hz?
Though this then requires all the problematic issues of the passive crossover...
So really I have to do a high crossover to have a working passive crossover that isn't wildly large and expensive and exotic.
So... back to the planar and a high cross at 700hz with something like the dayton classic 10 or sd270, etc.
Very best,
Like a MarkAudio CHN110:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-fullrange/markaudio-chn110-silver-6.75-full-range/
And mix this with two of the GRS10SW4HE's around 120~200hz?
Though this then requires all the problematic issues of the passive crossover...
So really I have to do a high crossover to have a working passive crossover that isn't wildly large and expensive and exotic.
So... back to the planar and a high cross at 700hz with something like the dayton classic 10 or sd270, etc.
Very best,
They are essentially the same woofer. And both will cover the bandwidth needed.
SD version has a different frame, so mounting ring looks different. Cleaner.
Different cone material. The more pretty basket usually cost more. Seem on sale for now
same price. Otherwise essentially the same thing.
SD is just a 4 ohm version. they split the 4 layer coil then make it gimmicky " dual voice coil"
Otherwise in normal woofer the " dual coils" are already connected in series
problem is for 2x woofer application it is a 2 ohm load.
Why I choose 8 ohm drivers so impedance isnt ridiculous
Otherwise for 8 ohm driver with the more pretty basket have to move to Designer Series.
SD version has a different frame, so mounting ring looks different. Cleaner.
Different cone material. The more pretty basket usually cost more. Seem on sale for now
same price. Otherwise essentially the same thing.
SD is just a 4 ohm version. they split the 4 layer coil then make it gimmicky " dual voice coil"
Otherwise in normal woofer the " dual coils" are already connected in series
problem is for 2x woofer application it is a 2 ohm load.
Why I choose 8 ohm drivers so impedance isnt ridiculous
Otherwise for 8 ohm driver with the more pretty basket have to move to Designer Series.
Very good points, thanks!
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-DC250-8-10-Classic-Woofer-295-315?quantity=1
The DC250 indeed looks promising, can be done in parallel. 2 drivers 4ohm.
The SD270 would be in series for 8ohm, if it matters.
I'd want whichever allows the easier time on impedance, don't want to dip below 4ohm much, if I can help that.
Very best,
Cool just make up your mind, plenty of wideband drivers.
Was a fun project because the detail and sound of planar is better
for the most part.
With single wideband likely only one woofer.
Only 84 to 85 dB so 2x woofers at 90 to 91 dB
may or may not work, depends on baffle step and whatever is
getting removed anyways.
Was a fun project because the detail and sound of planar is better
for the most part.
With single wideband likely only one woofer.
Only 84 to 85 dB so 2x woofers at 90 to 91 dB
may or may not work, depends on baffle step and whatever is
getting removed anyways.
What do you think about possibly doing 4 of the woofers, sealed instead? Cone area to increase SPL.
I'd love to use the planar, they are cool drivers.
Not sure if it would be better to use the two 4ohm drivers in series for 8ohm. Or use the two 8ohm in parallel as 4ohm. Won't know I guess without measurements and then see what parts are needed and not push impedance below 4ohm at least anywhere important that would be tough on an amp.
Thoughts? Thanks for your efforts!
Very best,
Always work around's.
2x woofers can be used as .5 crossover.
But likely to still see 2 ohm or 3 ohm dips in the lowend.
Be a rather demanding load. regardless.
As mentioned if you cant live without the more pretty mounting ring.
That is just a designers series basket with the cheaper magnet size like the classic.
For sealed and low budget there is a few GRS drivers.
Qts is high so they tend to want large large enclosures.
And the initial sim in WinIsd might be confusing at first.
But all together possible to guide thru that as well
Otherwise there is also another 10" high Qts driver good for sealed from Visaton
as well. Same thing big enclosure likely
4x woofers is close to impossible sealed on a budget, the enclosure would be ridiculous large with high Qts drivers
and Even 2x is gonna be pretty big. Luckily a tower which im guessing your going for.
The tall form factor helps, and is rather deep to make it work.
2x woofers can be used as .5 crossover.
But likely to still see 2 ohm or 3 ohm dips in the lowend.
Be a rather demanding load. regardless.
As mentioned if you cant live without the more pretty mounting ring.
That is just a designers series basket with the cheaper magnet size like the classic.
For sealed and low budget there is a few GRS drivers.
Qts is high so they tend to want large large enclosures.
And the initial sim in WinIsd might be confusing at first.
But all together possible to guide thru that as well
Otherwise there is also another 10" high Qts driver good for sealed from Visaton
as well. Same thing big enclosure likely
4x woofers is close to impossible sealed on a budget, the enclosure would be ridiculous large with high Qts drivers
and Even 2x is gonna be pretty big. Luckily a tower which im guessing your going for.
The tall form factor helps, and is rather deep to make it work.
I don't have a preference on the basket/cone, as long as its not car-audio-gimicky looking. The plain black ones listed here all so far are totally good to me. Just seeking numbers at this stage of this.
I would happily use 2 to 4 drivers, if it hits the goals.
The towers can be big. I'm ok with 4~5 ft^3 each. Goal is about 12" width baffle at the most, so 10's or less will be ok. Depth can be a lot, even 20" or so. The rest will go to height, and I'm ok with any height upwards of 5~6 feet tall no problem.
Just need to find out which 2~4 woofers will do best with that GRS planar crossed 500~700hz without a wild exotic expensive crossover.
So from that perspective, do you think the Dayton DC250 classic x 2 or x 4 in a bass reflex at 30hz or sealed would be best here?
Again thank you so much for your efforts, I appreciate the help a lot.
Very best,
I usually use wide baffles, but 12" wide sounds reasonable for a 10"
Actually was already assuming that and the baffle step might help for the planer with response.
Be great place to start and see what the planar response looks like.
As a tower 1:6 or close ratio will be helpful ,probably look right. So 12x31"or software being metric 300 x 780mm
Lets start with that and see. The planar response
Actually was already assuming that and the baffle step might help for the planer with response.
Be great place to start and see what the planar response looks like.
As a tower 1:6 or close ratio will be helpful ,probably look right. So 12x31"or software being metric 300 x 780mm
Lets start with that and see. The planar response
Hrm,
Not sure how to model the planar on a 12" baffle. I went to use Basta and then realized... the T&S values on this thing are empty basically. So would need software that uses its frequency response data and impedance data and can model that on a 12" baffle.
Do you have a suggestion on which software would be appropriate?
Very best,
Other options I'm looking over.
DSA215-8 driver (8", 8ohm, 89db sensitive) x 4
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...eries-Aluminum-Cone-Woofer-295-530?quantity=1
4 of these in a 5 ft^3 tower at 30hz with 70w:
Very best,
DSA215-8 driver (8", 8ohm, 89db sensitive) x 4
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...eries-Aluminum-Cone-Woofer-295-530?quantity=1
4 of these in a 5 ft^3 tower at 30hz with 70w:
Very best,
These are fun little drivers, if I could get them to work with a 500~600hz crossover....
(I actually have 2 of these sitting in boxes doing nothing, I could test to see if they actually make it to 700hz... be right back!)
https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-8...-Excursion-Subwoofer-4-Ohm-292-816?quantity=1
2 x of these in series (8ohm) at 70w
3 ft^3 bass reflex
30hz
Very best,
(I actually have 2 of these sitting in boxes doing nothing, I could test to see if they actually make it to 700hz... be right back!)
https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-8...-Excursion-Subwoofer-4-Ohm-292-816?quantity=1
2 x of these in series (8ohm) at 70w
3 ft^3 bass reflex
30hz
Very best,