Inresearched this as well. That’s why I ended up a bit confused as a grand piano on its own shouldn’t produce such low end, which is why I was stumped…..so
i have in fact done this, did the “subwoofer crawl” I think they called it. I do have dead spots, but I was able to optimize the MLP.
I didn’t do a great job of explaining the experience, as you’re right, “heart thumping” describes something else, but I think those that have listened to the song understand what I’m saying. I’m hope to more creative language to describe this “feeling.”? That’s why audio is so hard for the lay person to describe.
Thanks guys for all this great info!
Ideally I’d like to build a very “pretty” set of towers. I have the ability to “build” what I’m envisionsing, just don’t have the knowledge to design it properly.
That’s why I was hoping there would be a kit or something similar to where I had the plans and designs and just build it. I’ve see the CSS towers, though aesthetically they still look a bit ametuer (I hate exposed screws which is why I’d do something like KEF rings.). I’ve also see the Toid DIY towers where he uses the new Epique drivers
.
Would either of those be a good starting point in design. Could the Toids be made into towers the size of the KEF R11s (just to give you an idea of size and possibly “look” I’m going for.)
I understand I’m probably going about this backwards (and some of you are, probably very rightly, thinking “this isn’t how this works!”). I get it, I do, but hoping to just get a good idea of overall project direction.
Ideally I’d like to build a very “pretty” set of towers. I have the ability to “build” what I’m envisionsing, just don’t have the knowledge to design it properly.
That’s why I was hoping there would be a kit or something similar to where I had the plans and designs and just build it. I’ve see the CSS towers, though aesthetically they still look a bit ametuer (I hate exposed screws which is why I’d do something like KEF rings.). I’ve also see the Toid DIY towers where he uses the new Epique drivers
Would either of those be a good starting point in design. Could the Toids be made into towers the size of the KEF R11s (just to give you an idea of size and possibly “look” I’m going for.)
I understand I’m probably going about this backwards (and some of you are, probably very rightly, thinking “this isn’t how this works!”). I get it, I do, but hoping to just get a good idea of overall project direction.
No argument from this end -I'm slightly at a loss about what our friend seems to have taken such exception to, since the sole (the sole) purpose of the post that he appears to dislike so much was simply to explain, when you asked:
...that 'those volumes' might not be quite what you're thinking. When we talk about 'dynamic range' we're talking about peaks in output above some nominal average output level, such as the 85dB at the listening position I used as an example (or a fixed volume setting from the amplifier if you prefer!) Okay so far? The thing about musical content though is that the amount of energy it contains isn't equally spread across the audio band. Or to put it another way, say you're listening at your average 85dB and you arrive at a dynamic peak, such as a crescendo of some kind, a point that somebody belts a key very hard or some equivalent. Assuming the amplifier and speakers can handle it, the output spikes up, above that average level. But it doesn't necessarily do so across the entire frequency range. As you can see from the graph I posted above, most of the energy in orchestral music, which is one of the more demanding genres, is concentrated in the approximate 60Hz - 500Hz region, and falls off quite rapidly above & below that. There are exceptions, but it's a reasonable guideline. So in fact, while the system may get significantly louder across this band, the frequencies that lye outside that region are not necessarily going to see such dramatic changes in level. Some, obviously, but not as much.
No idea why that fairly innocuous fact has caused such upset to our fellow member, but it seems that it's my grammar that's the latest thing being objected to. Since this is a public forum, and I don't personally go around trying to find things to take offense at, I'll simply give a (good-natured) 'get knotted' on that one. 😉
Anyway: this goes back to the point that if you want to feel that kick in the chest (which is usually associated with lower & sub-bass, but I understand where you're coming from re larger pianos, especially if you're up close), you need to be shifting air, and generally speaking, a big speaker with a lot of cone acreage tends to do that better than smaller types. Like most things, there are or can be exceptions (to a point) but my original advice remains: a big-banger is likely to be less compromised in this regard than a smaller one. Something like Zaph's SB12.3 kit may be a reasonable start:
http://zaphaudio.com/SB12.3/
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...o-sb12.3-sb-acoustics-12-dual-midrange-3-way/
Coming more from the pro-audio side, and arguably a bit old fashioned, the Pi Speaker kits still do good jobs on this front too: https://pispeakers.com/contents.html
Plenty of others, obviously, but those are a couple off the top of my head. You might want to look at some of Troels Gravesen's larger kit designs too -although personally, I wouldn't be stumping up for the options with the expensive components. YMMV on that front, as always. 😉
Hope that helps.
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In general not. but no 2 models are identical.
Stereophile and whathifi have some 'measurements of the 800 series in different generations, while not as in depth as it could be it will give you a general sense.
Mostly common to find a "elevated top" end, just as most consumer speakers made to sell in stores.
What they often do have is minimal filtering between tweeter/mids, like the older yellow kevlar FST's for example the breakup at the upper part of it's range has not been notced out etc.
And the midrange enclosures have a minimal external diffraction signature, which they have used a lot of time and research to try and minimize the negative effects of, (like a spheres internal resonance).
They're mid are kind of unique, high sensitivity, copper sleeved,very open baskets, well behaved polars in the upper range, very lightweight cones, and very minimal excursion capabilities.
There are models with a elevated mid, or resonances/distortion in the midrange.
If you look up and read the 800 series 'white papers' you will get some insight into they're choices.
Although there is also a clear marketing purpose behind it.
One more note. I found uncompressed WAV replayed much better than loss-less FLAC especially for piano. Both on highly optimized musicPC to Chord Hugo DAC, and cloud-streaming my own rips to (former) flagship smartphone. WAV conveyed much more articulate rhythm and nuanced musicianship, like a real performance vs FLAC routine daily practicing. For piano I preferred WAV 44/16 to hirez FLAC.
Just listened to the free few seconds of this track. Indeed it has a Double Bass. But the lowest note on a bass is E, only 40Hz.
For good reproduction of a grand piano, the octave above 40Hz is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than 20-40Hz. (Not sure if telling the difference between a Steinway and a Bosendorfer is important musically 🙂 ) This is also certainly the case for good double bass. You need nice, even, powerful and low distortion 40-100Hz for realistic musical sound.
Why am I stating the obvious? It's cos extending the response to 20Hz makes HUGE MUSICAL compromises in the sound above 40Hz .. such that a dedicated sub just for 20-40Hz makes sense.
For another recording which illustrates this, try "Sad Old Red" by Simply Red.
Recorded grand pianos have as much bass as the engineer and/or producer want them to have. It’s not uncommon in modern pop music for an engineer to convert the impulse responses of an acoustic piano into midi and then use the midi data to feed a synth which is then blended in. Quoting or referencing the natural response of an acoustic instrument is quite meaningless these days
mayhem13, presumably you've listened to the Angel track and believe this is what is happening.
Got any readily available example tracks ?
I listened to some solo piano music yesterday and it was quite pleasing. What was missing was the very initial attack when a key was played dynamically. As my gear has no problem to reproduce such sonic events, with acoustic guitar and the like, in this case it fellt like something was limited during recording. This was just a feeling, as I had no information about the streamed recording and my wife switched to some soap opera before it ended.
Good subs like tapped horns 60Hz and down, and having enough of them, take it all in their stride.
Interesting discussion! Isn´t Grand pianos more "heart moving" or "heart warming" than "heart thumping"? At home I have OB´s with four 15" in total and they do grand pianos quite well, I can "feel" the piano, it´s filling the room with ... confidence? The drivers are cheap PA drivers, they work from around 20 to a few hundreds of Hz and are feed by 400 W class D amps and they don´t seemingly move if I don´t play modern instruments through them (electric bass, kick drums, synthetic bass).
I think this can serve as an example of the Displacement School. That´s the road I´ve taken.
I think this can serve as an example of the Displacement School. That´s the road I´ve taken.
Quality grand piano (Steinway, Bosendorfer, Chickering, Cincinatti or Arkansas Baldwin, Sohmer) has a tremendous impulse at the beginning of the note when the hammer hits. The brands listed have overtones into the four digits.
I found a 15" + 1" Compression Driver Peavey SP2(2004) had the best reproduction of wood piano of any speaker in this flyover city. Note SP2 for sale now are retuned to reproduce 1000 w AES and no longer have the -25 db HD specification.
I drive my SP2(2004) with 70 w/ch M-2600 amp. I listen at 1/8 w base level, but loud passages can go to 50 w. My music room has pretty good acoustics being 14' wide 11' tall 33' long, with carpet, acoustic tile, lots of urethane furniture, record racks, bookshelves, tables, piano organs (4) and large speakers (Hammond, Shober) to break up the standing waves.
Copies of Voice of the Theater or SP2 with plans include econowave https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/2023-econowave.396586/ https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/2023-econowave.396586/ and www.pispeakers.com 4pi
Asathor is close but being sealed does not IMHO go to 27 hz well. https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/367215-asathor-jbl-4367-clone.html?highlight=asathor I have never heard any of the diy speakers. None of the above do 54-27 hz.
The original JBL 4367 and M2 do go to 30 hz.
My consoles starting with the 1940 Steinway produce beat frequency bass and do not actually reproduce 27 hz. The bass notes of A0-C0 are two higher frequencies produced by a special winding of those strings.
Note I do not believe any MP3 track can reproduce grand piano. If you want to hear a real bosendorfer sparkle, buy a CD or LP of George Winston December. The MP3 of Holly and the Ivy on utube is a poor imitation, perhaps recorded with a camera microphone. I play Holly and the Ivy live on my Steinway and Sohmer consoles and the church's former Baldwin Acrosonic. I stopped singing and playing at the church when they gave away the Baldwin and replaced it with a Yamaha U model. Bunch of deaf old men run that church, believe the lies of some guy in a suit selling Yamahas. No highs or lows. Yes, they are durable. So is a LandCruiser. An 11' grand Yamaha is close to the quality brands, but the 6' Yamaha baby grands sound like ****. My ears go to 14000 hz before the tinitis of Army service.
I found a 15" + 1" Compression Driver Peavey SP2(2004) had the best reproduction of wood piano of any speaker in this flyover city. Note SP2 for sale now are retuned to reproduce 1000 w AES and no longer have the -25 db HD specification.
I drive my SP2(2004) with 70 w/ch M-2600 amp. I listen at 1/8 w base level, but loud passages can go to 50 w. My music room has pretty good acoustics being 14' wide 11' tall 33' long, with carpet, acoustic tile, lots of urethane furniture, record racks, bookshelves, tables, piano organs (4) and large speakers (Hammond, Shober) to break up the standing waves.
Copies of Voice of the Theater or SP2 with plans include econowave https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/2023-econowave.396586/ https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/2023-econowave.396586/ and www.pispeakers.com 4pi
Asathor is close but being sealed does not IMHO go to 27 hz well. https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/367215-asathor-jbl-4367-clone.html?highlight=asathor I have never heard any of the diy speakers. None of the above do 54-27 hz.
The original JBL 4367 and M2 do go to 30 hz.
My consoles starting with the 1940 Steinway produce beat frequency bass and do not actually reproduce 27 hz. The bass notes of A0-C0 are two higher frequencies produced by a special winding of those strings.
Note I do not believe any MP3 track can reproduce grand piano. If you want to hear a real bosendorfer sparkle, buy a CD or LP of George Winston December. The MP3 of Holly and the Ivy on utube is a poor imitation, perhaps recorded with a camera microphone. I play Holly and the Ivy live on my Steinway and Sohmer consoles and the church's former Baldwin Acrosonic. I stopped singing and playing at the church when they gave away the Baldwin and replaced it with a Yamaha U model. Bunch of deaf old men run that church, believe the lies of some guy in a suit selling Yamahas. No highs or lows. Yes, they are durable. So is a LandCruiser. An 11' grand Yamaha is close to the quality brands, but the 6' Yamaha baby grands sound like ****. My ears go to 14000 hz before the tinitis of Army service.
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Most (all?) electric bass guitars have a similar open E string. If anyone knows differently, please post examples of recordings where this is used.
It is very unlikely that you will get the accuracy of LF reproduction you desire unless you build sealed (Q 0.5) subs with large cone area. You should not expect a pair of little 13" drivers flapping around at silly excursions in a resonant box to adequately reproduce the magnificence of half a ton of timber and iron...
Consider half a square meter or so of cone area (Sd) and massive amplifier headroom as a minimal starting point.
Move a lot of air - GENTLY...
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Could not agree more. I played every Yamaha in the shop and hated them all, except the concert grand which I thought was nice but over priced and way bigger than my bank account. My piano was a trade in for a new Yamaha "upgrade", and I told the salesman they downgraded. Deaf old men, absolutely.
5 string electric and upright bass with a 31.5 Hz low "B" are quite common.
Jim Creeggan uses a WAV4 4 string upright electric bass, it could easily be tuned to a low "B", though I have not listened to the Sarah McLachlan "Angel" track to see what his lowest notes were.
What tracks does he use this low B ?
What other tracks do you know with 5 string bass low B ?
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As I wrote, I have not listened to the Sarah McLachlan "Angel" track to check what Jim Creeggan's lowest notes were.
A quick search:
Superstition by Stevie Wonder
Ain't Nobody by Chaka Khan
Summer of 69 by Bryan Adams
Peter Gabriel - Digging in the Dirt
Googling "Bass guitar", of the first 8 sponsored ads, four are 4 string, 3 are 5 string, and one has 6 strings.
There are tons of songs where the bass is played on keyboards, so any low note frequency desired can be played.
That said, the low fundamental notes of acoustic pianos do not have the SPL that a decent 12" subwoofer can play with low distortion.
And when a decent subwoofer distorts, it adds the second harmonic, what is primarily heard from the lower notes on a piano.
Art
This is Superstition analysed with Audacity. Please excuse the cutoff above 15kHz which is from the DSP juju I've used to get the whole track into Audacity with the required freq. resolution. The stuff below 35Hz is due to the Windowing and doesn't indicate lower frequency stuff .. obvious to yus DSP gurus.
What it shows is the lowest note played is D @ 36.7Hz. The peak at 75Hz confirms this (2nd harm of D) Listening to the track, I can't tell if this is a real bass or as Art suggests, synthesized.
Doing the same long winded process for Sad Old Red shows E @ 41.2Hz (not 40Hz as I said earlier) meaning I'm totally deaf yet 🙂
I'm not saying there are no tracks with B from a 5 string bass. I'd just like to know which tracks they are as they represent stuff which might be MUSICAL reasons for a system to reproduce.
With the ability to "Synth" any note to a half frequency and with the ability to boost any note by as many dBs as needed for impact and with some organ music being really quite deep I would have said that there was a need for our systems to be able to play deep and loud, even if it's not what we usually listen to.Noting also that I've changed my mind on deep bass over the years and now try and chase 16/18Hertz as a design goal; even if I've not got there yet