As a few have pointed out in different ways: music isn't pink noise -it's not flat / equal amplitude across the whole spectrum. When you look at, say, the energy distribution of a concert orchestra, you'll see the majority is concentrated in roughly the 60Hz - 500Hz region, above which in relative terms the output falls off a cliff. So it's in this region where most of the dynamic range requirements and largest peaks will occur -above that, the actual SPL doesn't vary anything like as much.
And this is fact or measured as opposed to what you think?
Is this what you mean:
Pink noise, 1⁄f noise, fractional noise or fractal noise is a signal or process with a frequency spectrum such that the power spectral density is inversely proportional to the frequency of the signal. In pink noise, each octave interval carries an equal amount of noise energy. Pink noise sounds like a waterfall.
Both white noise and pink noise encompass all frequencies of noise that are audible to the human ear. However, white noise contains all frequencies with equal distribution, whereas pink noise has more power at lower frequencies and less at higher frequencies, making it sound deeper.
Why could it not be more like Brown Noise, even less high frequencies. Did anyone ever measure this and decided which kind of noise it resembles?
There is still Red Black and Blue noise to consider.
Is this what you mean:
Pink noise, 1⁄f noise, fractional noise or fractal noise is a signal or process with a frequency spectrum such that the power spectral density is inversely proportional to the frequency of the signal. In pink noise, each octave interval carries an equal amount of noise energy. Pink noise sounds like a waterfall.
Both white noise and pink noise encompass all frequencies of noise that are audible to the human ear. However, white noise contains all frequencies with equal distribution, whereas pink noise has more power at lower frequencies and less at higher frequencies, making it sound deeper.
Why could it not be more like Brown Noise, even less high frequencies. Did anyone ever measure this and decided which kind of noise it resembles?
There is still Red Black and Blue noise to consider.
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I wasn't discussing noise form: the only point I was trying to make is that musical material has dynamic range, the greatest power demands generally occuring in the BW referred to. That's it. It was, in point of fact, one of the reasons the pioneers favoured 500Hz as a good compromise crossover frequency from the POV of general power-handling. Per Badmaieff & Davis:
Attachments
Badmaieff & Davis, never heard of them. Googled, he wrote a 150 page paperback book on building speakers, okay. So that makes him....? an old pioneer perhaps, choosing 500Hz for a cross-over frequency. If there is not much to be heard in the upper registers, they can fire some of the musicians, the triangle player is probably the first to go.
I guess if he was a rock head he would chose some other frequency maybe 300 Hz.
Sorry I could not help responding because there is so much irrelevant garbage floating around the internet with so much supporting conviction, that we must believe or be labelled ignorant or even stupid.
"is that musical material has dynamic range". I don't even want to comment about this, you really think that this is revelational.
I guess if he was a rock head he would chose some other frequency maybe 300 Hz.
Sorry I could not help responding because there is so much irrelevant garbage floating around the internet with so much supporting conviction, that we must believe or be labelled ignorant or even stupid.
"is that musical material has dynamic range". I don't even want to comment about this, you really think that this is revelational.
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Rather more formidable authority[ies] than you or I. 😉 The first spent much of his working life as an engineer for Western Electric / Bell Labs / Altec Lansing, eventually dying in-post as Chief Engineer: Acoustics-Transducers. The second, after a brief stint with NACA, moved into audio, also with W.E. / Altec Lansing, and later founding Synergetic Audio Concepts, co-authoring the original editions of Sound System Engineering. Don in fact only passed away last year, outliving his friend and co-author Alex[is] by over half a century.
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I am not sure you can refer to you and I. You know nothing about me. I hate generalisation. Speak for yourself only. Who cares whether Don out lived his friend by several decades or had a brief stint at something or other. If it was so revolutionary he would be known by everyone for his pioneering work. Is author of MAD magazine noteworthy. Probably or maybe not there is as many pages in every issue.
This is getting silly now. You asked a question and received an answer, with documentary support from two of the most formidable engineers in the history of audio transducer design, showing what is, thanks to people like them, a fairly well-known and unremarkable fact: that the majority of musical energy produced by a concert orchestra is concentrated in the approximate region 60Hz - 500Hz. Frankly, I don't know why you seem to be trying to make this such a big deal. You now seem to be complaining that since you said 'never heard of them', I took the trouble to tell you who they were, complete with (since I try to be respectful to those who have passed) a civil remark about Don's lengthy and highly distinguished career in the field.
No: I don't know who you are, and without meaning to cause offense, I don't care. The fact is that everybody here is standing on the shoulders of giants in some way or other, even if they don't know it or prefer not to believe it.
No: I don't know who you are, and without meaning to cause offense, I don't care. The fact is that everybody here is standing on the shoulders of giants in some way or other, even if they don't know it or prefer not to believe it.
Maybe he should have just answered the question (if he could) without the proverbial nonsense. What if the questioner now believes that he does not need a tweeter because there is hardly anything to hear above 500 Hz. Rather moderate those who mislead others.
Hugo, I am not bickering, I have been around to long, I am just calling Bullsh!t, Bullsh!t don't mislead the OP. It is definitely not a about a show of intellect. In my opinion, OP asks a question expecting an reasonable answer from a knowledgeable member.
I stumbled across the Cube Audio Nenuphar, which sounded about as compelling as Youtube videos go with entry-level headphones. 10" (?) underhung with 3mm clean Xmax should be plenty for life-like piano, if not "amplified" piano. Astronomical prices though. Or maybe not, depending on how you do your accounting with full-range drivers and the rest of the carpentry, not to mention your DIY electronics (right?! Right?!!)
For my next purchase I might stick with Mark Audio and try my hand at a backloaded horn with a mono-suspension Alpair. I was also thinking about (gore alert....) replacing the magnet assembly with an electromagnet. Don't worry, hopefully I won't run out of carbon credits, because I can use the same current source that biases the amplifier to charge the electromagnet! 😉
For my next purchase I might stick with Mark Audio and try my hand at a backloaded horn with a mono-suspension Alpair. I was also thinking about (gore alert....) replacing the magnet assembly with an electromagnet. Don't worry, hopefully I won't run out of carbon credits, because I can use the same current source that biases the amplifier to charge the electromagnet! 😉
Played the Angel studio track on Qobuz.
Angel by Sarah McLachlan on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/track/2719535
The above studio version sounded like it has bass accompaniment to me. Nice ~30Hz bass.
Search gave up this..
"The song has a sparse arrangement, with only three instruments used: a piano played by McLachlan, a drum machine programmed by Pierre Marchand, and upright bass played by Jim Creeggan of Barenaked Ladies.[9] It was recorded in the key of D-flat major.[10] For live performances, it is transposed up one half-step to D major, the key it was originally written in, and played without the bass."
The live version, Acoustic EP 2003 (Live) by Sarah McLachlan on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/album/0828765667357
Sounded like a grand piano🙂
There's two more live versions there to check out too.
Gotta love streaming.
Angel by Sarah McLachlan on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/track/2719535
The above studio version sounded like it has bass accompaniment to me. Nice ~30Hz bass.
Search gave up this..
"The song has a sparse arrangement, with only three instruments used: a piano played by McLachlan, a drum machine programmed by Pierre Marchand, and upright bass played by Jim Creeggan of Barenaked Ladies.[9] It was recorded in the key of D-flat major.[10] For live performances, it is transposed up one half-step to D major, the key it was originally written in, and played without the bass."
The live version, Acoustic EP 2003 (Live) by Sarah McLachlan on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/album/0828765667357
Sounded like a grand piano🙂
There's two more live versions there to check out too.
Gotta love streaming.
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Those frequencies are more than an octave higher than “heart or chest thumping” frequencies.
Your speakers are capable of producing plenty of SPL to "feel", more than a live grand piano in the players seat.
The integration (phase and time alignment) of the subs and mains is critical for "thump", if misaligned, especially with shallow crossover slopes, you won't get much sense of percussive transients.
Speaker positioning can have a tremendous effect on both frequency response and perceived impact, considerably more than the parts used.
You listed the speaker components, but not room dimensions or their placement, or how you have aligned the subs and mains.
It may not a be a realistic expectation to match the resonse of another system auditioned in a different room.
Art
I have been playing piano since I was 7yo, and now have a grand piano in the house. In the same room is my hi fi with speakers I built. I have been building speakers off and on for around 50 years. Over the years I have found the piano the most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately, and I use it (and other instruments I make) to evaluate speakers I make. Do they match the real grand piano. In some respects yes, in other respects no, it is always a compromise, usually size and cost. A grand piano is a big instrument with a great big piece of Spruce for the sound board, and the bigger the piano the longer the sting length is and the better the bass tends to sound. The grand piano with the lid up is LOUD, but the loudness is very directional. Stand near the open lid for an extended time and you are likely to damage your hearing. That is why concert pianos are positioned with the open lid facing the audience. It also has a massive dynamic range. It will go very loud, but also very soft. It does not give a "heart thumping" experience at all, so I suspect that is a characteristic of the system you are listening to. The bass is rich, low, loud and solid, is the best way I can describe it. Building speakers is always a compromise, size, cost, availability of parts, your own capabilities and tools etc. I prefer to concentrate on the mids and treble since after all, the reason I purchased that particular grand piano was because of the clarity of the mids and treble. The bass was a bonus. You might be chasing the impossible, given the restraints, especially if you are a newbie.
Thank you @mandoman.
My go-to F.A.S.T. for piano has been a rescued pair of Fostex W300Aii 12" alnico wired full-range straight-through and allowed to straight-drop at ~2.6khz, augmented by offset tweeter placed on top, cap high-pass filtered. Called "John'k" after esteemed johnk who had done it this way. Within the Fostex family, for full-orchestra I preferred F200A "F'ate" (notch-filter ~3khz); for mid-scale ensemble F120A Fonkensteen (planet10) augmented with supertweeter; and for chamber-music FE108eΣ "Eazy" (shelf-filter ~1.5khz) with sub. (Reported in the fullrange forum.)
Lately however I have been experimenting with more unusual/bizarre configurations such as "LX Eazies" 108eΣ/168eΣ (fullrange photo gallery) and "reflector-coaxial" near-field 15" (just described in the ragged coaxial thread). So the Fostex will likely be reshuffled.
My go-to F.A.S.T. for piano has been a rescued pair of Fostex W300Aii 12" alnico wired full-range straight-through and allowed to straight-drop at ~2.6khz, augmented by offset tweeter placed on top, cap high-pass filtered. Called "John'k" after esteemed johnk who had done it this way. Within the Fostex family, for full-orchestra I preferred F200A "F'ate" (notch-filter ~3khz); for mid-scale ensemble F120A Fonkensteen (planet10) augmented with supertweeter; and for chamber-music FE108eΣ "Eazy" (shelf-filter ~1.5khz) with sub. (Reported in the fullrange forum.)
Lately however I have been experimenting with more unusual/bizarre configurations such as "LX Eazies" 108eΣ/168eΣ (fullrange photo gallery) and "reflector-coaxial" near-field 15" (just described in the ragged coaxial thread). So the Fostex will likely be reshuffled.
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Before you spend $$$ and build more speakers/subs, try moving your subs around including having them next to your listening position. This can give more than 20dB of heart thumping bass improvement ... if that is what you want.
But grand pianos don't really have 'heart thumping bass'. They are actually dipoles facing up at LF which is modified by the lid. Uprights are dipoles facing horizontally 🙂
Bottom A on a Steinway is 27.5Hz. This fundamental is at low level but you notice when its missing. Bosendorfer Concert Grands on the other hand ....
But grand pianos don't really have 'heart thumping bass'. They are actually dipoles facing up at LF which is modified by the lid. Uprights are dipoles facing horizontally 🙂
Bottom A on a Steinway is 27.5Hz. This fundamental is at low level but you notice when its missing. Bosendorfer Concert Grands on the other hand ....
This was my thought all along. Even googled the frequency response of pianos and this key exactly is around 300-400hz, so not subs at all (I could be off on the key and frequency, but its in that area).
So, yes, I think it may be the midrange. Does anyone know if B&W elevates their mids in their 800 series? B&Ws have given me close to what I’m looking for.
No worries, this is why I love forums, seriously. Two guys with more knowledge that they’ve forgotten then I have in total on this subject!…arguing over something I can’t even comprehend at the moment. Good stuff!
I doubt the bickering is of any use to the OP.
Hugo
Really impressed with how much you guys know about this stuff. It’s like any hobby or interest i suppose.