With Scan-speak 26W/8861T00 in a 80 liter bass reflex cabinet you have a little bit better bass than L26RFX. A couple of dB lower at 20-40 Hz but still way to much bass for the room you think you will use. I have included simulations for L26RFX and 26W/8861T00 in the last image.
The drivers you have been thinking of do not suite 80 liter bass reflex cabinet in a 15-25m2 room. Bass will be overwelming IMHO.
First I have included a simulation of how much bass level will increase because of room size.
Here I have simulated a 22,5m2 room with your speakers quite close to side and rear walls.
Basically you have:
50 Hz +3dB
40 Hz +10dB
30 Hz +14dB
20 Hz +14dB
For simulated "real" response in your room you should add these room gain levels to the loudspeaker simulation.
Your request for a 80 liter bass reflex cabinet could not be fully fulfilled.
I selected two suiteable drivers for 80 liter closed cabinet.
Faital Pro 15FH520 would suite 80 liter bass reflex in a 25m2 room. Perfectly balanced, but with a sensitivity of 98dB/1W/1m.
Then you would need to select a different midrange, and since you are so keen on SS 12mu I don't consider that as an option.
I have two other suggestions.
Beyma 12BR70 (red curve) in 80 liter sealed cabinet. That is a 8 ohm single bass driver.
SB Acoustic 26SFCL38-4 (blue curve) is a 4 ohm driver suitable for 40 liter closed cabinet. So each loudspeaker should have two of these drivers coupled in series to suite 80 liter cabinet and your demand of 8 ohm impedance.
Sensitivity for both alternative are 91-92 dB which will match the 87dB of 12MU for a 4-5dB baffle step compensation.
The lowest grey curve is my target curve for flat response in 25m2 room, so both alternativs will have som extra bass level that I think you will appreciate.
The drivers you have been thinking of do not suite 80 liter bass reflex cabinet in a 15-25m2 room. Bass will be overwelming IMHO.
First I have included a simulation of how much bass level will increase because of room size.
Here I have simulated a 22,5m2 room with your speakers quite close to side and rear walls.
Basically you have:
50 Hz +3dB
40 Hz +10dB
30 Hz +14dB
20 Hz +14dB
For simulated "real" response in your room you should add these room gain levels to the loudspeaker simulation.
Your request for a 80 liter bass reflex cabinet could not be fully fulfilled.
I selected two suiteable drivers for 80 liter closed cabinet.
Faital Pro 15FH520 would suite 80 liter bass reflex in a 25m2 room. Perfectly balanced, but with a sensitivity of 98dB/1W/1m.
Then you would need to select a different midrange, and since you are so keen on SS 12mu I don't consider that as an option.
I have two other suggestions.
Beyma 12BR70 (red curve) in 80 liter sealed cabinet. That is a 8 ohm single bass driver.
SB Acoustic 26SFCL38-4 (blue curve) is a 4 ohm driver suitable for 40 liter closed cabinet. So each loudspeaker should have two of these drivers coupled in series to suite 80 liter cabinet and your demand of 8 ohm impedance.
Sensitivity for both alternative are 91-92 dB which will match the 87dB of 12MU for a 4-5dB baffle step compensation.
The lowest grey curve is my target curve for flat response in 25m2 room, so both alternativs will have som extra bass level that I think you will appreciate.
Attachments
In this simulation:
Green curve 26W/8861 T00
Blue curve Wilson Audio Alexx
Red curve Wilson Audio Sasha DAW
Both these Wilson speakers used drivers from the same series from Scan speak and I have selected to make simulation on the drivers in this series that most closelly give the same result as Stereophiles review measurement, so I belive they are fairly similar to the real world drivers Wilson uses.
Their Alexx and Sasha DAW is developed to be used in rooms that are 35-50m2 as far as I can tell.
So another 3-4dB of extra bass with 26W/8861 T00 would be too much for even 35-50m2 rooms and totally to much in a 25m2 room.
Green curve 26W/8861 T00
Blue curve Wilson Audio Alexx
Red curve Wilson Audio Sasha DAW
Both these Wilson speakers used drivers from the same series from Scan speak and I have selected to make simulation on the drivers in this series that most closelly give the same result as Stereophiles review measurement, so I belive they are fairly similar to the real world drivers Wilson uses.
Their Alexx and Sasha DAW is developed to be used in rooms that are 35-50m2 as far as I can tell.
So another 3-4dB of extra bass with 26W/8861 T00 would be too much for even 35-50m2 rooms and totally to much in a 25m2 room.
Many thanks flex2 !!, to undestand better the difference can you please add a graph with 26W/8861T00 (80 liters) , L26RFX (80 liters) and SPH-250KE (76 liters) ?
thanks !
thanks !
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/scan-speak/scanspeak-26w/8861t00
Check dayton rs270p, peerless ne265, faital 10rs430,....
Check dayton rs270p, peerless ne265, faital 10rs430,....
Sure...
All bass reflex cabinets.
Do not blame me if you end up with too much and overwelning bass since all of these drivers are best suited in closed cabinets and bigger rooms.
Blue curve Seas 26WRFX/P in 80 liter bass reflex cabinet
Green curve ScanSpeak 26W/8861T00 in 80 liter bass reflex cabinet
Red curve Monacor SPH250 KE in 74 liter bass reflex cabinet
All curves without room gain added.
Gray curve my target line for 25m2 room.
Also note that this is transition curves and that the drivers have somewhat different sensitivity.
I would suggest a sensitivity that is 3dB higher than the midrange ScanSpeak 12MU to make baffle step design easier. More on that later since you need to settle for bass driver first.
Here a link to a design from Troels Gravesen that uses ScanSpeak 26W/8861T00 where he investigate about bass reflex vs sealed cabinet and effect of room gain, and hopefully you will understand that the room gain is quite much in a 25m2 room. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jensen.htm
Look through his designs. You might find some useful information about 12MU and matching tweeters for example.
He is a very accomplished designer.
All bass reflex cabinets.
Do not blame me if you end up with too much and overwelning bass since all of these drivers are best suited in closed cabinets and bigger rooms.
Blue curve Seas 26WRFX/P in 80 liter bass reflex cabinet
Green curve ScanSpeak 26W/8861T00 in 80 liter bass reflex cabinet
Red curve Monacor SPH250 KE in 74 liter bass reflex cabinet
All curves without room gain added.
Gray curve my target line for 25m2 room.
Also note that this is transition curves and that the drivers have somewhat different sensitivity.
I would suggest a sensitivity that is 3dB higher than the midrange ScanSpeak 12MU to make baffle step design easier. More on that later since you need to settle for bass driver first.
Here a link to a design from Troels Gravesen that uses ScanSpeak 26W/8861T00 where he investigate about bass reflex vs sealed cabinet and effect of room gain, and hopefully you will understand that the room gain is quite much in a 25m2 room. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jensen.htm
Look through his designs. You might find some useful information about 12MU and matching tweeters for example.
He is a very accomplished designer.
Thank you for your suggest.
I have checked that peerless ne265, faital 10rs430, have VAS of only 60 liters and are not compatible with a 80 liters box.
About dayton rs270, is interested but the 26W/8861T00 seem a higher category.
I have checked that peerless ne265, faital 10rs430, have VAS of only 60 liters and are not compatible with a 80 liters box.
About dayton rs270, is interested but the 26W/8861T00 seem a higher category.
Thank you very much for this information, I will keep it in mind.
I will check the site (that I already known) to matching woofer, midrange and tweeter.
I will check the site (that I already known) to matching woofer, midrange and tweeter.
Yes, a smaller cabinet volume will be easier to find a suitable driver for, but I have not gone that route since you was defending 80 liter bass reflex as the cabinet you wanted to use.
Is the cabinet already built?
Yes, 26W/8861T00 is a better driver than Dayton RS270 since it have a proper copper cap on the pole piece which linearize impedance and give a more resolved and exact reproduction of midrange compared to RS270.
Look for slowly rising impedance curve from 150 Hz and upwards.
That indicates a good reproduction of midrange that will help you make the transition to 12MU more harmonic.
Is the cabinet already built?
Yes, 26W/8861T00 is a better driver than Dayton RS270 since it have a proper copper cap on the pole piece which linearize impedance and give a more resolved and exact reproduction of midrange compared to RS270.
Look for slowly rising impedance curve from 150 Hz and upwards.
That indicates a good reproduction of midrange that will help you make the transition to 12MU more harmonic.
To be honest my actual 74 box literes that I have for 14 years with Monacor SPH250KE produce the right deep bass for my personal preference.
I understand that theorically there is too much bass for my room size, but I admit that I like deep basses.
With the next project I would like to design speakers with higher-quality drivers and that go a little lower in frequency, keeping the same sensitivity between 100 and 50Hz.
I thought of a volume of 80 liters because going down in frequency requires a volume greater than 74 liters. But now that I think about it, maybe that's not the best solution because from what I've seen scaling too low with a larger volume also means losing something in sensitivity in the frequencies between 50-100 Hz. Maybe I am better off staying around 74 liters not more.
I understand that theorically there is too much bass for my room size, but I admit that I like deep basses.
With the next project I would like to design speakers with higher-quality drivers and that go a little lower in frequency, keeping the same sensitivity between 100 and 50Hz.
I thought of a volume of 80 liters because going down in frequency requires a volume greater than 74 liters. But now that I think about it, maybe that's not the best solution because from what I've seen scaling too low with a larger volume also means losing something in sensitivity in the frequencies between 50-100 Hz. Maybe I am better off staying around 74 liters not more.
Great, then you have a personal reference point from where to start. That is a good start.
I would not look at drivers with higher CMS if you want more punch and resolution compared to SPH250KE.
ScanSpeak 26W/8861T00 in 50 liter bass reflex cabinet would have approx the same response as SPH250KE in 74, but it have softer
suspension so it will take longer time to neutral position and will probably have more low frequency distortion.
So 26W/8861T00 might perform worse in bass than your SPH250KE.
Maybe look at performance at Hificompass, DiBirama or Audioexcite which all have excellent measurements. It might help you select where to go, and send a message when you want something compared
with current SPH250KE in 74 liter cabinet.
Maybe you should test your current SPH250KE as a closed cabinet by covering the port?
That will tell you if you really need to go deeper. Maybe it is cleaner, lower distortion you need since you mention you would like to have more punch.
Just as a simple test on your preferences.
I would not look at drivers with higher CMS if you want more punch and resolution compared to SPH250KE.
ScanSpeak 26W/8861T00 in 50 liter bass reflex cabinet would have approx the same response as SPH250KE in 74, but it have softer
suspension so it will take longer time to neutral position and will probably have more low frequency distortion.
So 26W/8861T00 might perform worse in bass than your SPH250KE.
Maybe look at performance at Hificompass, DiBirama or Audioexcite which all have excellent measurements. It might help you select where to go, and send a message when you want something compared
with current SPH250KE in 74 liter cabinet.
Maybe you should test your current SPH250KE as a closed cabinet by covering the port?
That will tell you if you really need to go deeper. Maybe it is cleaner, lower distortion you need since you mention you would like to have more punch.
Just as a simple test on your preferences.
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Another simulation to help you decide where to go from here.
Red curve Monacor SPH250 KE in 74 liter bass reflex cabinet.
Blue curve Monacor SPH250 KE in 74 liter sealed cabinet.
Grey curve my target curve for 45m2 room.
Listen to your speakers and decide if you like it best as a bass reflex or as a sealed cabinet.
Red curve Monacor SPH250 KE in 74 liter bass reflex cabinet.
Blue curve Monacor SPH250 KE in 74 liter sealed cabinet.
Grey curve my target curve for 45m2 room.
Listen to your speakers and decide if you like it best as a bass reflex or as a sealed cabinet.
This type of test I have already done in the past with the conclusion that with bass reflex is better for my personal preference and your simutation match with my in past.
My hunch is that by choosing 26W/8861T00 or an L26RFX in a 74-liter box perhaps there would not be that much difference in terms of bass depth compared to my current design. But perhaps this might not be a big problem. What I am wondering though is if I gain nothing in terms of sensitivity in the low frequencies, would I quad gain something in terms of quality and less distortion ? or again the result would not be so different ?
My hunch is that by choosing 26W/8861T00 or an L26RFX in a 74-liter box perhaps there would not be that much difference in terms of bass depth compared to my current design. But perhaps this might not be a big problem. What I am wondering though is if I gain nothing in terms of sensitivity in the low frequencies, would I quad gain something in terms of quality and less distortion ? or again the result would not be so different ?
The Seas L26RFX-P in a 74 liter bass reflex cabinet will absolutely go deeper than Monacor SPH25 KE in the same box, but at the risk that you have to reduce the "punch" capacity. Distortion is about the same.
Seas L26RFX-P have about the same performance in a 42 liter bass reflex as SPH25 KE does in 74 liter bass reflex.
One driver that I know have very good reputation to have excellent bass is Beyma 12BR70.
That driver have stiffer suspension and lower distortion and have about the same frequency response in a 92 liter cabinet compared to your current loudspeaker.
That probably will elevate performance a bit by halfing the distortion in deepest bass and still retain the "punch" capability or even increase it since it is more controlled and have less ringing time becuse the stiffer suspension.
Beyma 12BR70 might be an upgrade.
But then you get even further away to make a harmonic match with your 12MU for midrange.
You might need to go for a bigger midrange driver and a midrange cabinet of around 6 liters.
SB Acoustics Satori MR13TX-4 TeXtreme is a worthy competiton to ScanSpeak 12MU-8731T00. https://sbacoustics.com/product/5-satori-mr13tx-4-textreme/
It will be easier to integrate with a bigger bass driver and would need approx. 4-5 liter sealed cabinet
Cross over point between bass and mid can be at 400 Hz instead of >500 with 12MU.
Extremely low distortion in this driver.
Yes, it's a 4 ohm driver which departs from your goal of linear 8 ohm impedance, but you probably would need to lower sensitivity
which can be done with a series resistor only because of the highly linear impedance. Could be in 6 ohm range before crossover.
This midrange belong among the best avaliable today regardless of price and it will be easier to integrate with the bass driver than 12MU.
Another way to go would be a 4 way design if you can handle designing a cross over. It's quite difficult and complex. 3-way is easier.
Beyma 12BR70 in 92 liter bass reflex cabinet
??? driver in 15-17 liter sealed cabinet (ScanSpeak Revelator 18M/8631T00 or 18W/8531G00). Will give some extra punch to upper bass and lower mid.
Midrange will probably have better performance in general with a shared load of a 7" and a 4" driver.
ScanSpeak 12MU in 3 liter sealed or vented cabinet
Good 1-1,5 inch tweeter.
That would have the potential to rival some of the top brands best designs if designed properly.
I don't know if it's important for you to design your self or if you can accept a finished solution to build.
Troels Gravesen have some 4 way designs...
Another simulation with three similar results matching your preference.
Beyma 12BR70 in 92 liter bass reflex
Seas L26RFX-P in 42 liter bass reflex
Monacor SPH250 KE in 74 liter bass reflex
The differentiating curve in purple is Seas L26RFX in 80 liter bass reflex cabinet.
The bigger the cabinet the stiffer suspension of the driver and that means less distortion and cleaner bass.
Seas L26RFX-P have about the same performance in a 42 liter bass reflex as SPH25 KE does in 74 liter bass reflex.
One driver that I know have very good reputation to have excellent bass is Beyma 12BR70.
That driver have stiffer suspension and lower distortion and have about the same frequency response in a 92 liter cabinet compared to your current loudspeaker.
That probably will elevate performance a bit by halfing the distortion in deepest bass and still retain the "punch" capability or even increase it since it is more controlled and have less ringing time becuse the stiffer suspension.
Beyma 12BR70 might be an upgrade.
But then you get even further away to make a harmonic match with your 12MU for midrange.
You might need to go for a bigger midrange driver and a midrange cabinet of around 6 liters.
SB Acoustics Satori MR13TX-4 TeXtreme is a worthy competiton to ScanSpeak 12MU-8731T00. https://sbacoustics.com/product/5-satori-mr13tx-4-textreme/
It will be easier to integrate with a bigger bass driver and would need approx. 4-5 liter sealed cabinet
Cross over point between bass and mid can be at 400 Hz instead of >500 with 12MU.
Extremely low distortion in this driver.
Yes, it's a 4 ohm driver which departs from your goal of linear 8 ohm impedance, but you probably would need to lower sensitivity
which can be done with a series resistor only because of the highly linear impedance. Could be in 6 ohm range before crossover.
This midrange belong among the best avaliable today regardless of price and it will be easier to integrate with the bass driver than 12MU.
Another way to go would be a 4 way design if you can handle designing a cross over. It's quite difficult and complex. 3-way is easier.
Beyma 12BR70 in 92 liter bass reflex cabinet
??? driver in 15-17 liter sealed cabinet (ScanSpeak Revelator 18M/8631T00 or 18W/8531G00). Will give some extra punch to upper bass and lower mid.
Midrange will probably have better performance in general with a shared load of a 7" and a 4" driver.
ScanSpeak 12MU in 3 liter sealed or vented cabinet
Good 1-1,5 inch tweeter.
That would have the potential to rival some of the top brands best designs if designed properly.
I don't know if it's important for you to design your self or if you can accept a finished solution to build.
Troels Gravesen have some 4 way designs...
Another simulation with three similar results matching your preference.
Beyma 12BR70 in 92 liter bass reflex
Seas L26RFX-P in 42 liter bass reflex
Monacor SPH250 KE in 74 liter bass reflex
The differentiating curve in purple is Seas L26RFX in 80 liter bass reflex cabinet.
The bigger the cabinet the stiffer suspension of the driver and that means less distortion and cleaner bass.
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Hi flex2,
think you have suggested me a good solution.
So I need to find some midrange that can be cutted at 400hz, the 12MU-8731T00 is not the right choice and SATORI MR13TX-4 can be a good solution.
In this way I can choose woofers with limited frequency response.
4 way design is too complex and expensive.
I attach 3 woofers (with my SPH250KE included)
For your opinion the distortion between SPH250KE and the others is the some ?
In other words, if I choose SATORI MR13TX-4 that allow to cut at 400 hz, can I consider better L26RFX-P and 26W/8861T00 then my SPH250KE ?
Actually the cost of this woofers is:
SPH250KE: ---> 140 Euro
L26RFX-P: ----> 240 Euro
26W/8861T00-> 390 Euro
I am asking this to see which one it is also appropriate with in relation to cost.
Many thanks again
think you have suggested me a good solution.
So I need to find some midrange that can be cutted at 400hz, the 12MU-8731T00 is not the right choice and SATORI MR13TX-4 can be a good solution.
In this way I can choose woofers with limited frequency response.
4 way design is too complex and expensive.
I attach 3 woofers (with my SPH250KE included)
For your opinion the distortion between SPH250KE and the others is the some ?
In other words, if I choose SATORI MR13TX-4 that allow to cut at 400 hz, can I consider better L26RFX-P and 26W/8861T00 then my SPH250KE ?
Actually the cost of this woofers is:
SPH250KE: ---> 140 Euro
L26RFX-P: ----> 240 Euro
26W/8861T00-> 390 Euro
I am asking this to see which one it is also appropriate with in relation to cost.
Many thanks again
Attachments
I would stay with the Monacor SPH250 KE.
You should not select bass driver based on their distortion performance from the graphs on DiBirama.
The reason is that I suspect that both Scan-speak and Seas wasn't broken in when measured.
Their values are very far from the manufacturers.
So it might be that they will change later when suspension is softened and then more distortion will kick in.
Monacor have the highest sensitivity of these three so it is probably the stiffest suspended and I do not
think you would like to go to even softer drivers.
Monacor SPH250 KE also have the smoothest frequency response above 300 Hz out of these three.
You should not select bass driver based on their distortion performance from the graphs on DiBirama.
The reason is that I suspect that both Scan-speak and Seas wasn't broken in when measured.
Their values are very far from the manufacturers.
So it might be that they will change later when suspension is softened and then more distortion will kick in.
Monacor have the highest sensitivity of these three so it is probably the stiffest suspended and I do not
think you would like to go to even softer drivers.
Monacor SPH250 KE also have the smoothest frequency response above 300 Hz out of these three.
Attachments
To the question of tweeter choice, I have direct experience with both the Morel soft domes as well as Mundorf AMTs. In my experience, the soft domes can actually be heard distorting at higher outputs. The good news is that the domes can be modified to eliminate this behavior. The AMT from Mundorf is wonderfully clean, but as already mentioned, dispersion seems a bit less smooth. If you're not afraid to modify the Morel, then the two options are equal. Otherwise, an AMT (well aimed and adjusted for volume) will put cymbals right in your room!
This is a very good news. Many thanks !!!
I like this woofer and I would be happy to use it in another project.
WIth this woofer I can easily cut well above 500hz without problems.
At this point, I ask which midrange beetween these:
//
Morel EM 1308
Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00
TANG BAND 75-1558SH
//
is better then my actual Visaton DSM50FFL and it would be the most appropriate one to choose.
I'm confused about the Scan-speak 26W/8861T00 woofer, when I look at the manufacture's frequency response data it seems a bit of a mess to me. The 3 db dip at 1.3kHz isn't so bad but the 5 db rise to 2kHz just looks bad to me. There also seems to be some kind of resonance at 1.3kHz. I understand that this driver will be crossed low, but I don't understand how this driver should cost so much. What am I missing? Glad to see you rejected it. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Dayton RS270, I used the RS180P-4 in a two way and I was surprised at how easy it was to work with.
For the mid range I think you should be looking for a 5 inch or 5.5 inch driver, preferably a true mid-range not a mid-woofer. I traced the factory data and the lowest frequency I could cross the 4 inch Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00 was 600 hz. I agree with @flex2 that the Satori MR13TX-4 will do a better job, also look at the Satori MR13P-4 to save a few euros. I think the SEAS Prestige MCA15RCY (H1262) looks good on paper although I have never tried it.
For the mid range I think you should be looking for a 5 inch or 5.5 inch driver, preferably a true mid-range not a mid-woofer. I traced the factory data and the lowest frequency I could cross the 4 inch Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00 was 600 hz. I agree with @flex2 that the Satori MR13TX-4 will do a better job, also look at the Satori MR13P-4 to save a few euros. I think the SEAS Prestige MCA15RCY (H1262) looks good on paper although I have never tried it.
Thank you for let me known for experience.
I have thinked to Morel EM 1308 and TANG BAND 75-1558SH, becouse don't need a separated box and this make more easy the design and also both are 8 ohm.
But if the Satori MR13TX-4 is better I can 300 Euro if is better of all the others.
One thing is not clear is why the Satori MR13TX-4 is only 30 watt, I suppose will be not a problem, but for mid-woofer expensive like this I expect a bit more power.
I have thinked to Morel EM 1308 and TANG BAND 75-1558SH, becouse don't need a separated box and this make more easy the design and also both are 8 ohm.
But if the Satori MR13TX-4 is better I can 300 Euro if is better of all the others.
One thing is not clear is why the Satori MR13TX-4 is only 30 watt, I suppose will be not a problem, but for mid-woofer expensive like this I expect a bit more power.
Mtidge, the graph you show is not 26w 8861. I already posted the link to hificompass measurement, as a warning that this driver cannot be used upto 500hz due to its strong resonance around 500hz.
Anyway, scan speak woofers are excellent units when used right.
My idvices come from real experience with the drivers, here specifically with 12mu in 3 projects. 12mu can be crossed over below 500hz, it is technically feasible, but the thing is it does not have the cone area which would sound thin.
12mu is excellent midrange, I already spent a lot of time looking around for 10-12inch woofer capable of 500hz lr2 crossover and having good bass at once. Such a project is not for beginners.
10+5 is much easier because the is plenty of 10inch woofers suitable for ~300hz lr2.
Anyway, scan speak woofers are excellent units when used right.
My idvices come from real experience with the drivers, here specifically with 12mu in 3 projects. 12mu can be crossed over below 500hz, it is technically feasible, but the thing is it does not have the cone area which would sound thin.
12mu is excellent midrange, I already spent a lot of time looking around for 10-12inch woofer capable of 500hz lr2 crossover and having good bass at once. Such a project is not for beginners.
10+5 is much easier because the is plenty of 10inch woofers suitable for ~300hz lr2.