Well, Magico seems to get their designs sorted out on directivity these days, so maybe… but still ridiculously overpriced.
Surely high price and "over engineering" is a large part of the value some might place in speakers like Magico? The contrast with bookshelf speakers that are well designed and engineered in a conventional sense without the quotes (e.g. Neumann KH 310) is strking. Of course those that highly value Magico speakers to the extent of considering purchase are likely to have little to no interet in speakers like the Neumann and vice-versa. It takes all sorts which adds to the interest.
A few drivers that should be obvious candidates.
Scanspeak 10F.
Faital Pro 4FExx.
B&W 5" FST Continuum wil do well too, just not past 10k, and have nothing to do below 3-400hz.
If you want something exotic, and difficult to find, WITH A PRICE TAG TO MATCH. Beryllium Coax, TAD CST, heavily influenced by Andrew Jones (KEF, MOFI,TAD, etc.)
Scanspeak 10F.
Faital Pro 4FExx.
B&W 5" FST Continuum wil do well too, just not past 10k, and have nothing to do below 3-400hz.
If you want something exotic, and difficult to find, WITH A PRICE TAG TO MATCH. Beryllium Coax, TAD CST, heavily influenced by Andrew Jones (KEF, MOFI,TAD, etc.)
But the crossover subtracts a lot, giving the FR a fighting chance. Take away the need for higher level, and closer distance can easily wipe out any “technical” advantage the multiway does.
Net result: a well done FR, especially near-field, can sound better.
dave
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Not sure I understand. Isn't an active DSP crossover audibly neutral in the same way digital recordings of adequate resolution are audibly neutral? Now it is obviously possible to mess up the design but filters can remove the smooth lumps and bumps, control off-axis radiations patterns to a high standard, enable the use of drivers with non-resonant passbands, enable the use of drivers of appropriate size for the frequencies involved, reduce modulation distortion, etc... They are not comparable in terms of achievable technical performance but wideband drivers can compete on price at the budget end and they are simpler to use in speakers (although not to design given controlling the resonant behaviour at high frequencies while having enough surface area, displacement and power handling to have some sort of output at low frequencies is difficult-to-impossible though likely a fun challenge to see what can be achieved).
Yes but I try an analogy I know well, is car with motor and weight.
Ok you compensate the velocity by power, yes a BMW M5 (2T) is a ballerin 😁 with a big motor but I'd never go to do a rallye with it, two much weight , I prefer a Honda civic type R (1.5T)
Why ? You have a more dynamic car which can react faster in the turns, easier to control.
If you apply this to speaker driver I notice a more vivid sound, a better tracking of the transient.
I don't try to convince anyone but yes weight could be compensate by power but not in all aspects. It is based on my observations.
Same thing with dome tweeter and ribbon tweeter, the ribbon is more airy because it has a lighter cone. We talk about acceleration and deceleration here...
@planet10 Dave I agree crossover can remove a lot of informations but I make crossover to have a better IMD, a better separation of instruments. I notice the crossover should respect phase and should have low phase shift. The problem is to keep the coherence like a FR, a difficult task.
Note it is for me an exchange of point of view, I don't have any truth. Things should be place in their contexts.
Can you describe this information in technical terms or is it something you have observed when listening?
Quite the contraption. I'd want acrylic top and side panels on the finished speakers so I could marvel at the innards. 🙂
jeff
It is something I have observe. Theoricaly the mathematics says all must sum well. It is the case on the paper. But in practice to my ear it is not the case, simulation software take into account offset, polar response but the first thing I hear is the lost of naturellness of the sound.
In the simulation, it is a supposition, you don't take into account some lost in components. Could be source of distortions.
Sometimes you have mismatch, I marry a 1" compression with a 8" LR4 1.3kHz, good phase tracking, first order on the compression and four order on the woofer. Listen to a piano the high notes are marvellous, the low notes the piano sound false, less clear, a problem in the harmonics. Something wrong I should investigate.
Obviously, you don't know enough about cars and their motor and weight - what about Rimac Nevera? Weight 2.15 tons, but it is vastly better than Honda Civic (1.5 tons) in every possible way - faster, accelerates better, more dynamic.
You can't apply this analogy to loudspeakers - they don't and they shouldn't move in the turns at all. What you have noticed is pure placebo.
You can't - you don't have any evidence at all.
Yes, we can compensate weight by power, in all aspects - it is basic physic, brought by sir Isaac Newton long time ago. You have to observe/read his works sometimes. If you didn't know: Acceleration = Force/Mass.
favourably of course Maybe there are better drivers but the chassis is impressive I like metal cabinets a lot
Many responses in this thread are pure spam. As someone who doesn't eat animal derived food I cannot oblige. Small low mass drivers are superior. While not the absolute best of those I've tested, more extended than most, the Visaton B100 in a simple bass reflex cabinet at near to midfield listening levels will beat anything any of you have ever built for home audio listening levels. Perhaps with the exception of those experimenting with ribbons and electrostatic. There are a couple even smaller lower mass drivers that sound better from 200hz and up but those few cannot play lower than 200hz, like the Visaton B100. If opting for a full range driver, the Visaton is the best. Given the amount of nonsense of this forum I will leave it up to those with good ears to explore the sub 4" category of drivers to determine which is the best of the lot. A driver that is low mass, high sensitivity, and all the while achieves high power handling is the optimal formula and a good way to avoid wasting time with lots of junk.
The only panel that really has an impact on the speaker performance is the front baffle 😳 It absolutely must not move back and forth during music playing
When a speaker has a frame like this one the top and side panels can be made out of cardboard
Someone says that side back top panels vibrations can add to the front emission
If we had to look at the level of these not direct emissions we could see that their levels is orders of magnitude lower than the direct emission
Moreover putting some damping panels on the reflective surfaces around the speaker will cancel completely these already weak reflected sounds
Usually the reflected sounds we hear are coming from the front drivers emission not from the side panels of the cabinet
The front baffle instead is the really and only one that counts The designers who have realized this fact use stiff thick and heavy panels for the front
Imho the cabinet design is of paramount importance on the performance of the speaker expecially in a full range speaker of course
The major force to counteract is the one coming from the displacement of the cones of the big woofers
I think that above 200Hz if a light/small cone midrange is used the problem of vibrations generated by the driver is neglectable Just a decent cabinet would be enough
For this reason i would keep the lower woofer always alone in a separate box Always
I did a trivial experiment ... i add some lead slabs inside a small 2 ways and cut its response at around 150 Hz with a high pass filter
The speaker completely disappear and the soundstage was phenomenal Very impressive
The same speaker before the mod used full range sounded more confused Much more actually
P.S. there is a very easy way to check visually the movement of a panel Just stick with some biadesive tape a little piece of mirror on the side you want to check The best spot is of course in the middle of the panel where the displacement is bigger
Then take a laser point and aim at the mirror from an angle and trace where the reflected point ends Then play a low Hz tone at high SPL
If the reflected point moves that is the evidence of the panel vibrating This can be very useful with subwoofers for instance
I am sure that the cheapest ones will move like during an heartquake
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The main reason for making the front panel stronger is that it is weakened by driver cutouts.
All panels are usually firmly connected and all of them are affected by internal/external pressure.
So it's important that all if them are stiff (for bass) and/or heavy and non-resonant (for midrange).
This is daft and given you are not posting in the "Full Range" forum looks rather like trying to raise a negative reaction. Small low mass drivers have no low frequency response, inadequate SPL, a resonant high frequency response, a radiation pattern all over the place (with the odd exception), etc... You may claim to prefer the sound effects but I rather suspect this would not carry over into a controlled blind test against speakers with a substantially higher technical performance and more neutral response. I cannot be certain though because I have stood next a wideband driver enthusiast enthusing (genuinely I believe) about the sound from a horn loaded 3" that was so poor I was uncomfortable and didn't know what to say. It takes all sorts. Perhaps I should add that I have also heard some more competently designed speakers using wideband drivers that were perfectly reasonable for budget speakers.