First off. I hope that this can be viewed as relevant for midrange drivers, as for woofers too. Even though our psychoacoustical parts of our brains and ears - might allow different levels of tolerance, when going to deeper frequencies.
I have been eager to jump on the RS series woofers, for quite some time - now with the Signature series lurking with maybe an 8 Ohm version soon 🤞
Though, the curiosity in me - often enriched - by the comments like yours. Dares me to ask again. Why pay more? What is it that we would benefit from, with more expensive drivers, like SS Revelator, Purifi, Seas Excels, Morel, Wavecor and the like?
Purifi I understand. The sheer amount of engineering and cost of hiring well-educated minds in the western world, is expensive - no doubt here.
The RS125 is an excellent sounding driver with a near perfect size and passband for midrange duty…..but it lacks in efficiency and as such dictates the sensitivity of the proposed system as a whole to around 85db. Not sure if this is relevant anymore though with cheap class D watts available on every corner…..SET, Tube and high end folks will see this differently.
Not sure which of the RS125 drivers you have in mind, but the "weakest" has almost 87dB.
That's enough as a mid driver in a 90dB efficient threeway speaker.
I still have it. And I tested it against the SB MW13TX. Where the SB was better in clarity, the Dayton played deeper. So I do understand why people like Dayton for bass. The Dayton does nothing wrong really, is easy to work with and plays nicely in general. I just find it slightly lacking in detail, maybe because of the stiffer suspension and less optimum motor.... well.... we're talking in comparison with drivers costing 3-4 times as much... that has to be taken into consideration.
I crossed it around 2kHz to a Seas DXT in a narrow baflle, like the one you see in the design on Heissmann acoustics.
You pay build quality, well engeenering driver and the cost of work in occidental countries.Sometimes you could have marketing strategy.
The problem is not the price if you can afford it but your needs and your specifications. I try to optimize to reduce costs.
Sure the price of the drivers isn't an indicator of final quality. My best speaker is not the most expensive and with lowest distortion.
It is difficult to have an opinion on a driver if you didn't listen to it, work with it. Measurements are not enough to evaluate but an indicator of quality.
I think the problem with the distortion measurement of the Sig120 at 4.24Volt is a "single issue event" therefore we need more drivers tested than just one!
Could also be a sub-baffle insert rattling ....
https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/2183/iec-test-baffle/p2
Distortion can be lowered further by filtering at least the minor 6kHz resonance like PURIFY informed us some time ago .
In one picture I saw some bad glueing of the surrounding rubber edge , a slight misalignment , quite often seen in lower priced drivers . The problem with the Signature Series by Dayton Audio is the centering of the one-piece inverted dome . Several methods are thinkable to solve the problem but I don't know how they have done it exactly so I leave this question open for further speculation ....
Happy New DIY !!!
Could also be a sub-baffle insert rattling ....
https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/2183/iec-test-baffle/p2
Distortion can be lowered further by filtering at least the minor 6kHz resonance like PURIFY informed us some time ago .
In one picture I saw some bad glueing of the surrounding rubber edge , a slight misalignment , quite often seen in lower priced drivers . The problem with the Signature Series by Dayton Audio is the centering of the one-piece inverted dome . Several methods are thinkable to solve the problem but I don't know how they have done it exactly so I leave this question open for further speculation ....
Happy New DIY !!!
@Marveloudio
I have 2 x RS390HF and 2 x RS125, a friend of mine has 6 x RS390HF and another friend has 8 x RS390HO and 4 x RS225. None are misaligned or not working properly - just saying. Sad if the new Signature series are less precise.
But seriously though. Kii 3 and Dutch & Dutch C8, gets raving reviews and awards.... all with basic Seas Prestige tweeters. I even think the Kii 3, uses a very cheap paper midrange. Again, implementation and overall design of the speaker is key. My example of preferring the SB MW13TX over the RS125, might be more to do with how the motor and cone, is able to create a smooth and even response, on all axis', while keeping the distortion low.
Once, I tried a Bliesma T34B against a Seas DXT. The Seas won i to my ears, because of the precise sound stage and imaging, which comes down to mostly being a waveguide/baffle combination thing. So again again... overall combined construction and design, wins over fancy materials and high prices - IMO.
I have 2 x RS390HF and 2 x RS125, a friend of mine has 6 x RS390HF and another friend has 8 x RS390HO and 4 x RS225. None are misaligned or not working properly - just saying. Sad if the new Signature series are less precise.
This is often why we love independent testing, to actually see an in-depth test of all parameters and details. On the surface, and especially on paper... everything looks awesome and shiny. Just look at used cars, houses and dating profiles. 😆
But seriously though. Kii 3 and Dutch & Dutch C8, gets raving reviews and awards.... all with basic Seas Prestige tweeters. I even think the Kii 3, uses a very cheap paper midrange. Again, implementation and overall design of the speaker is key. My example of preferring the SB MW13TX over the RS125, might be more to do with how the motor and cone, is able to create a smooth and even response, on all axis', while keeping the distortion low.
Once, I tried a Bliesma T34B against a Seas DXT. The Seas won i to my ears, because of the precise sound stage and imaging, which comes down to mostly being a waveguide/baffle combination thing. So again again... overall combined construction and design, wins over fancy materials and high prices - IMO.
We definitely need to specify in which condition a specific midrange driver is needed to play. A high power PA midrange in a wide baffle midrange baffle, is a totally different thing overall, than a small typical HIFI midrange in a narrow baffle tower. Even the wide baffle and the tweeter you pair it with, is going to make a huge difference to the perceived sound.
Certainly yes, @digitalthor.
I made a test with a 5" - below at right with a Beyma 5MP60N with 12BR70 and T2030 - and my attempts proved unsuccessful : the tone always stayed more or less somewhat "honky" from the midrange... This prototype is in standby now... Wait and see !
On this another one below, the midrange is a 4", and the results proved no better than returning in a 2-ways configuration for the final build (Monacor SPH-170 and DTS-280, FC=4.5kHz)
T
I made a test with a 5" - below at right with a Beyma 5MP60N with 12BR70 and T2030 - and my attempts proved unsuccessful : the tone always stayed more or less somewhat "honky" from the midrange... This prototype is in standby now... Wait and see !
On this another one below, the midrange is a 4", and the results proved no better than returning in a 2-ways configuration for the final build (Monacor SPH-170 and DTS-280, FC=4.5kHz)
T
while for powerhouse and ultra low distortion based systems, large format Midrange (6"and up) are great....BUT i'll say it again.....narrow baffled systems image better.....period. SPL will be the limiting factor here. A 5" wide stick tower with wide horizontal dispersion and no obstructions between is something very special to enjoy in a typical mildly reflective home environment. OM1 tweeter crossed high to a 2-4" mid......top and bottom capped with 4" midwoofers and an active sub down low.......or a few of those SB Racetrack woofers in a line.
Very agree with that ! I always like SEAS prestige tweeter and I use them a lot. I like a lot the 5.25 Peerless midrange SDS 830656 20$, I prefer it over more expensive mid of this manufacturer like the HDS.@tubelectron
Integrate a 4" or a 5" in a system is hard !
Don't give up, it tooks me a lot of iteration of crossver to have a satisfiying sound. It's easier to do when you own a DSP and you can choose crossover points and slopes. I have had some success integrating a 5" with a 12" after several iterations of crossovers. The case of the 6+4"+1" I did it one time with a very simple crossover.
Check out PHL 5" speakers - https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/brands-page/phl-audio/grave-medium/haut-parleurs-13-cm-5-pouce.html
Yes @jerome69 - that's the conclusion I also draw...
I think that a 7" or 8" midrange is probably easier to match with a woofer, because the transition FC can be lowered to 300-400Hz, thus leaving "all the voices characters" in one speaker only (like a single full-range speaker do), instead of "unnaturally cutting these voices" between the woofer the and midrange.
T
Surely a midrange with an Fs below 150Hz can be used with Fc in that range? And that would allow most 3" and 4", let anlone 5" and above?
My understanding is that the somewhat legendary ATC dome had an Fs at about 360 and that was where ATC crossed it - and also ProAc in the Studio3s I used to own.
If you don't have long ringing at the resonance frequency (you often have) and the driver can take it (esp domes mostly have not enough Xmax for that) you can also cross around Fs. But of course it's easier when you don't have to.
I always try to choose drivers that have a FS as far as possible from the FC, while showing a linearity without major accident in the region of the FC. But it's not always possible !
On my 375L (below), the FC are 400Hz and 5000Hz, the 8" Midrange having a FS=82Hz - so over 5xFC), and the "blade" Tweeter having a FS=3500Hz - quite close at only 1.5xFC : Vance Dickason, in his Loudspeaker CookBook, recommends 2xFC as a minimum... Not always possible, we said ! 😕 Fortunately, the Beyma CP21/F offers an acceptable linearity circa 5000Hz...
T
How can that possibly have a smooth power response and off-axis just below the upper FC? I assume that the speaker is crazy efficient, but I don't need that.
Here's the FR in axis of the Beyma Midrange 8M60N :
And the FR and polar pattern of the Beyma Tweeter CP21/F :
Plus I am not too much off-axis in my near-field listening position - circa 15 to 20° :
So I don't encounter any notable issue... 😎
T