In all this discussion of soundstage there's a couple of things that get overlooked.
Live recorded orchestral music - fine - there's a soundstage there to capture.
Most music, however, starts with an artificial soundstage - so where's the need to 100% get that right?
The biggest issue with soundstage isn't the amp etc chain, it's the room acoustic / speaker interaction.
And lastly, where there is a soundstage to reproduce it relies on an illusion. Illusions are very subjective, everyone probably perceives differently, and there are many people for whom that illusion basically doesn't work, I'm one of them! (similarly with optical illusions - many of us see an annoying flicker in 24fps cinema).
Live recorded orchestral music - fine - there's a soundstage there to capture.
Most music, however, starts with an artificial soundstage - so where's the need to 100% get that right?
The biggest issue with soundstage isn't the amp etc chain, it's the room acoustic / speaker interaction.
And lastly, where there is a soundstage to reproduce it relies on an illusion. Illusions are very subjective, everyone probably perceives differently, and there are many people for whom that illusion basically doesn't work, I'm one of them! (similarly with optical illusions - many of us see an annoying flicker in 24fps cinema).
The better an amp measures, the less it sounds. It is simply that simple.
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Asking a simple question is not polemical.
And the reason I really would like an answer is because I get fed up with all the handwaving and content free statements of people who throw around all kinds of opinions without any backup. But I know answers will not come forward, your reactions illustrate that again. It remains just stories and strong opinions, nothing more.
I'll give up for now. Maybe in the future someone will be honest enough to say what he thinks and why. Not holding my breath.
Jan
I have what I once thought was such an amp. Its a Benchmark AHB2. I wanted an amp that is a 10 out of 10 good. I found out it its more like 8 or 9 out of 10 at best. What's wrong with it doesn't show up on standard measurements, but its audible for someone who is attentive. Some musical information just goes missing at certain times and places in a piece of music. It may have to do with the dynamics of the rail voltage switching scheme it uses to achieve high efficiency. That and a reactive load.
So is it a bad amp? Well, its not a 3 out of 10, if that's what you mean. But it isn't what I thought I would be getting based on measurements either. So for me, its an amp that I don't use.
EDIT: Also, IIRC I ran across a post at one time that described a test that was used to probe dynamic distortions in amps that use rail switching. Seems like it used something like the sum of two waveforms, one big and one small, which were then adjusted to find large signal output voltages where small signal distortion increases. Something like that. Also IIRC, the distortion was found to be an audible problem and the test was then developed to try to explain the audible effect. Don't know if it was for AHB2 though.
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Actually Mark if pressed I would probably also mention that amp.
What is 'Some musical information just goes missing at certain times and places in a piece of music' ?
How do you know it is missing, did you hear it before so you are convinced 'it' is there?
With which amp was that?
Jan
What is 'Some musical information just goes missing at certain times and places in a piece of music' ?
How do you know it is missing, did you hear it before so you are convinced 'it' is there?
With which amp was that?
Jan
Yes I remember all your gushing on that amp when it came out. Now suddenly you don't use it. This would confuse the heck out of anybody trying to get guidance from you.
Personally I am still trying to work out how an amplifier can affect soundstage beyond personal belief it could or a pathalogical design. Moving your head forwards or back 1 inch is likely to have a bigger effect on the soundstage due to room interactions (IMO).
Personally I am still trying to work out how an amplifier can affect soundstage beyond personal belief it could or a pathalogical design. Moving your head forwards or back 1 inch is likely to have a bigger effect on the soundstage due to room interactions (IMO).
We did a quick A/B comparison of two amps. A friend insisted there was something wrong with the sound of AHB2 but he wasn't sure what it was. First we played a piece of music we both know well on AHB2, then on the other more conventional amp, then on AHB2 again. After that my friend stated from memory a list of thing that sounded wrong or missing with AHB2. Since I was familiar with the music too, I also noticed the exact same things. They were things I never noticed were missing prior to that direct comparison. Small things, but important if we are using the amp as a reference for testing other audio equipment. IIRC, one thing that was missing was the beat note of a piano note that had one of the strings a little out of tune.
An amplifier can be pathological if it was not tested for certain problems. One such problem is asymmetrical crosstalk.
I am no expert, but even little crosstalk can affect soundstage. Sometimes, just for fun i compare various cheap phono cartridges, using 4tp p-mount for quick exchange.
There are offcourse significant sound differences. Not only in fr response, especially how clean or dirty highs are.
Soundstage is often different too. Crosstalk is big in cartridges, which may not be a bad thing.
Amplifiers have crosstalk too, you know. That can affect soundtage either way, perhaps.
Wireing, pcb layout, all sorts of switches, it all may affect soundstage.
Plus other factors outside the amp, room and speaker placement, but that is different story.
1 - you do not name that other amp that supposedly was better than the ABH2 amp;
2 - 'more conventional amp' - one wonders if you would have heard the same thing if you hadn't known the AHB2 used rail switching 😎
3 - maybe the 'other amp' just added things that weren't in the source and the ABH2 didn't. Amps are known to do that, as I am sure you're aware.
All anecdotal.
Jan
2 - 'more conventional amp' - one wonders if you would have heard the same thing if you hadn't known the AHB2 used rail switching 😎
3 - maybe the 'other amp' just added things that weren't in the source and the ABH2 didn't. Amps are known to do that, as I am sure you're aware.
All anecdotal.
Jan
The other amp was a slightly modified Aragon 8008 MkII. Its a beefy, very conventional type of power amp. Costs more than an AHB2 too.
However, the Aragon has since been put out to pasture. Now using a pair of Marantz SA9M2.
Please note I do not claim these other power amps measure lower HD than AHB2. Its just that for me a little HD is livable so long as nothing goes missing.
Also, have you ever listened to what the beat note sounds like on a real piano with one string a little out of tune? It sticks out like sore thumb.
However, the Aragon has since been put out to pasture. Now using a pair of Marantz SA9M2.
Please note I do not claim these other power amps measure lower HD than AHB2. Its just that for me a little HD is livable so long as nothing goes missing.
Also, have you ever listened to what the beat note sounds like on a real piano with one string a little out of tune? It sticks out like sore thumb.
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I am working on a demo for next month's European Triode Festival on 'tricks' to increase sound stage and in general improve the perceived sound.
I am using an Aphex Aural Exciter which is a great piece of kit to modify the sound reproduction.
I couple that to measurements of the Aphex on the AP and try to correlate settings to perceptions.
Let me tell you, it's ridiculously easy to 'improve' the perceived sound by fiddling with frequency response and distortion spectra.
On the moving of your head: Richard Burwen wrote in an article in Linear Audio that in his experience, taking a glass from the coffee table, taking a sip and put it back in another spot could already change the sound!
Jan
I can't assume it, because it's just a your invention, a your theoretical hypothesis.
Also because we don't yet know what the "right boxes" are in order to produce a good sound, but only to produce good measurements.
Please trust me, I imagine and I understand that your obsession as a designer is to one day achieve all the knowledge necessary to design and predict a great sound from an amplifier and maybe even be able to predict and modify the sound to your liking.
Please believe me that I understand you, if I were a designer I would probably have the same desire.
This is impossible, by design.
It may be a longing, okay, it may be a wishful thinking, it may even be a dream, but I don't think it will ever come true.
The field of hearing is subjective.
The field of measurements is objective.
No one will ever be (yet) able to marry them, because perfect technology related to the senses simply does not (yet) exist.
You said it yourself: ideal.
It is just self-explanatory: it doesn't exist (yet).
I remind you that this is always your invention, your hypothesis, your game, not mine.
However I don't understand what value you want this single exception to have for you.
It is just a singe exception born from your mind and I cannot know what value you want to give to this single exception born from your mind, because it is your mind not mine.
I guess you think about that just because you aspire to perfection.
I imagine and understand if you aspire to perfection, and I admire that.
But unfortunately I must also reluctantly point out that perfection is not of this world, for better or for worse, and one has to come to terms with it sooner or later.
If I were a designer I would probably have the same desire.
And you?
Please tell me your opinion about that and your point of view.
There is no such thing as 'wire with gain'.
Halcro is back in business, someone bought them. Would be interesting to inpect it closely, hear it, compare it.
Wolverine group is getting pretty close to 10 now. Does that mean it is perfect or best amp?
What if little tube classA amp with horrendous thd presented more pleasing soundstage? I suppose all of you ee guys would scream 'sacrilege'!
Because it was not double blind ******** crap scientifically proven.
This thread was doomed from the start, like others about this subject.
Halcro is back in business, someone bought them. Would be interesting to inpect it closely, hear it, compare it.
Wolverine group is getting pretty close to 10 now. Does that mean it is perfect or best amp?
What if little tube classA amp with horrendous thd presented more pleasing soundstage? I suppose all of you ee guys would scream 'sacrilege'!
Because it was not double blind ******** crap scientifically proven.
This thread was doomed from the start, like others about this subject.
That's not equivalent to moving your head. Its a reflector in the sound field that can cause things like comb filtering. Moving your head isn't the same at all.
Seems like Jan wants to believe that existing AP measurements can fully characterize an amplifier (at least to the threshold of audibility), something not even AP believes.
Other people believe their ears more than they believe in the AP as the final arbiter of what can be audible.
Other people believe their ears more than they believe in the AP as the final arbiter of what can be audible.
OT someone who posts here has tried cross talk correction in the digital domain for his vinyl playback and reports very good results. But crosstalk correction boxes never took off. I have read suggestion that the reports on vinyl soundstage are partially related to playback crosstalk, which is certainly plausible. I prefer one amp per speaker for short cables so I can't think cross talk there could be an issue?
@jan.didden yes frequency response is a big one and books on studio technique list the frequencies to cut/boost to affect stage height and depth. But unless an amplifier has a major load dependant frequency response then I fail to see how 2 similar amplifiers could make a difference. A puny SET vs a welding set solid state muscle amp yes, but two similar topologies?
Pleasing isn't an issue, as long as someone says it's pleasing rather than 'more accurate'
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