Update on a post further down....... now trying to decide between teh Anarchy 7 and the Wavecor SW182BD03/4, or the Dayton Epique 7"
I'm designing a subwoofer for my specific scenario... Several drivers seem to fit the parameters I need.....and model a very similar frequency response in a similar ported box, etc. Trying to figure out if there's something else I should look for/think about before choosing between drivers.
I'm looking for a subwoofer that is...more "musical" and not about punch/shaking the house..... and won't be played at an extreme volume ever (I have downstairs neighbors that I don't want to constantly offend).... I just want to round out the frequency response in my room, more bass than the Carmody S2000 kit will provide. I'd like good low frequency extension, but at relatively low volumes, and I have box size limitations. (SAF, etc)..
Is there something else I should pay attention to that WinISD modeling wouldn't show when choosing between drivers?
For example, I'm looking at the Dayton 6.5" paper cone sub, or the Anarchy 7 aluminum cone sub, and other similar size sub drivers, like the Dayton Epiques, etc..... Is there some other parameter to pay attention to, like cone material? Or magnet size, basket, etc? Or will WinISD lead me astray? (Modeled 40hz performance of one driver vs another won't be accurate, etc?)
Thanks for your thoughts!
-Nate
I'm designing a subwoofer for my specific scenario... Several drivers seem to fit the parameters I need.....and model a very similar frequency response in a similar ported box, etc. Trying to figure out if there's something else I should look for/think about before choosing between drivers.
I'm looking for a subwoofer that is...more "musical" and not about punch/shaking the house..... and won't be played at an extreme volume ever (I have downstairs neighbors that I don't want to constantly offend).... I just want to round out the frequency response in my room, more bass than the Carmody S2000 kit will provide. I'd like good low frequency extension, but at relatively low volumes, and I have box size limitations. (SAF, etc)..
Is there something else I should pay attention to that WinISD modeling wouldn't show when choosing between drivers?
For example, I'm looking at the Dayton 6.5" paper cone sub, or the Anarchy 7 aluminum cone sub, and other similar size sub drivers, like the Dayton Epiques, etc..... Is there some other parameter to pay attention to, like cone material? Or magnet size, basket, etc? Or will WinISD lead me astray? (Modeled 40hz performance of one driver vs another won't be accurate, etc?)
Thanks for your thoughts!
-Nate
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Goals seem to be musical, 40hz?, smallish, present at low volume...it seems to me you could narrow down the correct driver by thinking about alignment/enclosure type, number of drivers and budget?
Heh, I was trying to not muddy the waters too much with other details.
I'd like extension below 40hz if possible, and it seems to be possible based on my modeling.
Initially I was looking at a sub design like Paul Carmody's Turtle/Burro/Pony style. But due to the space I have, SAF, and possibility of the sub being in 2 different locations in the room over time depending on furniture layout, (so side firing isn't really a good option, nor is rear/top/bottom firing the port or driver) I think I need something smaller than the 8" Dayton RSS210HF driver Paul used for that design.
So I was looking at, about 0.8 CF or so, ported (Ported to get the extension in this small box.) Port and driver need to be in the front face/baffle of the box. Front of box is 12.25 x 9, but I will use a grill and frame for it (magnetic, probably), so baffle will be smaller than sides to hide plywood edges, so baffle face is 11.25 x 8. (1/2" material).
Looking at something like the 2" Precision port (Flared on both ends) and a 7" driver can barely fit on the baffle.
Number of drivers? I suppose I could do something like an isobaric, or two 5.5" drivers on the front baffle... but otherwise was thinking a conventional ported box with a single driver. To be driven by a small plate amp, most likely.
Budget? Mmm, for a single driver, probably wouldn't spend more than ~$150 on the driver itself....that's where I struggle a bit too..I see the Wavecor 7" $155 option (out of stock), or an Anarchy for $85 shipped, or a Dayton 6.5" Classic for $55... ............ I am a bit flexible on budget for the project though.... possible I'd consider adding a simple sub DSP unit like Dayton's as part of this setup.
IMO present at low volume is harder to achieve with smaller drivers, maybe consider a pair of 6.5 push-push sealed?
OK, reading up on the push push sealed.... If I understand correctly it'd be a single sealed box with 2 drivers mechanically opposed from each other (across)?
And the advantages are about cancelling cabinet vibration into the floor and such? Or is there something else? If we're talking low volume....does that cabinet noise matter? <85 db?
What am I missing here, then?..... Below is the same 6.5 sub driver... one is 0.8 CF ported box tuned to 28 hz, the other is a sealed 0.4 CF box. (single driver in each example) I see the ported box as giving me 8db more at 35 hz? (These both have some filters applied from crossover and HPF in the amp)
Wouldn't adding a 2nd sealed one for the push-push (And doubling to a 0.8 CF volume) get me the response below of the sealed one with 3db added everywhere?
And the advantages are about cancelling cabinet vibration into the floor and such? Or is there something else? If we're talking low volume....does that cabinet noise matter? <85 db?
What am I missing here, then?..... Below is the same 6.5 sub driver... one is 0.8 CF ported box tuned to 28 hz, the other is a sealed 0.4 CF box. (single driver in each example) I see the ported box as giving me 8db more at 35 hz? (These both have some filters applied from crossover and HPF in the amp)
Wouldn't adding a 2nd sealed one for the push-push (And doubling to a 0.8 CF volume) get me the response below of the sealed one with 3db added everywhere?
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Presents at low volume often comes down to how much air your moving and how hard the driver has to work to move it. 2 drivers would increase sensitivity making bass more 'present' at lower overall volume, 2 drivers are working less so less extended so theoretically they could sound better, vibr(ation cancel is a bonus. I mostly suggested this because it gets more driver area in a smallish space. A bigger driver/enclosure also would also be effective. Many small drivers can reach low but require a lot of volume/wattage
Nate,
Cone or basket material is not really a concern regarding the TS parameters, but linear displacement (Xmax) is.
Large displacement is needed to produce audible levels from small drivers, and that requires long voice coils and magnet structures, which cost more. Doubling displacement nets a 6dB increase in level, over twice as loud at 30 Hz.
The Dayton 6.5" Classic has only 3.2mm Xmax, limiting output in a sealed cabinet to just under 81 dB, the Exodus Audio WO6-0017R "Anarchy" has 12mm Xmax, allowing more than 11 dB more output down low- almost the equivalent of four of the Dayton 6.5" Classics.
In a ported cabinet, excursion will be at minima at Fb (Frequency of Box tuning), but will rise above and below Fb.
The SPL possible with ported cabinets will be much higher than the above chart at Fb if the port is of adequate size.
Our hearing is less sensitive to low frequencies as can be seen in this equal loudness chart:
92dB at 30 Hz is perceived as about the same level as 40dB at 1000Hz, considerably less level than a conversation at one meter distance.
The vent diameter must be much larger for the higher displacement driver to keep port air speed below a "whistling" level, less than around 30meters per second with flared ports. The large diameter will require longer ports, which may require bends, increasing cabinet volume.
Art
Thanks Art! Interesting to think about room gain vs perceived loudness per the chart.
As far as Xmax.....good point I wasn't really stating here..I was aware that it mattered, but didn't realize it was 6db for twice the excursion!
As far as Xmax.....good point I wasn't really stating here..I was aware that it mattered, but didn't realize it was 6db for twice the excursion!
So I think I've narrowed down to the Anarchy 7", or the Wavecor 7" SW182bd03/4.
Differences: higher Fs on teh Anarchy, like 45 vs 37, and the Anarchy has a 12mm xmax vs 7... And But I see some notes about the Wavecor and Anarchy both having very low distortion, and the Wavecor being especially good at quick transients, like kick-drums...(not sure the anarchy is any worse though.)
Denovo says this, though: " Can I use this as a subwoofer? Answer: People have used these as small subwoofers for 2.1 music systems. They aren't really recommended as home theater type subwoofers that need to reproduce bass down in the low 20hz range or less."
Thoughts on either as a subwoofer to pair with my Carmody S2000s? Should I spend a few bucks less on the Anarchy, or go with the Wavecor? Is the lower Fs worth anything here? Both model out VERY similarly in WinISD.
Does anyone know if I have to buy 2 drivers from Erich to ship them, or does that only apply to his kits?
Differences: higher Fs on teh Anarchy, like 45 vs 37, and the Anarchy has a 12mm xmax vs 7... And But I see some notes about the Wavecor and Anarchy both having very low distortion, and the Wavecor being especially good at quick transients, like kick-drums...(not sure the anarchy is any worse though.)
Denovo says this, though: " Can I use this as a subwoofer? Answer: People have used these as small subwoofers for 2.1 music systems. They aren't really recommended as home theater type subwoofers that need to reproduce bass down in the low 20hz range or less."
Thoughts on either as a subwoofer to pair with my Carmody S2000s? Should I spend a few bucks less on the Anarchy, or go with the Wavecor? Is the lower Fs worth anything here? Both model out VERY similarly in WinISD.
Does anyone know if I have to buy 2 drivers from Erich to ship them, or does that only apply to his kits?
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Art is right: there is no low perceived unless it is cranked up a lot relative to the mid-range. But he didn't draw any implications of that truth for choosing a suitable design.
Now I face that all the time - playing music while others hope to sleep. There are two aspects: (1) does the music sound right, albeit soft or (2) does my sternum shake. You just can't have #2 at night. So how to create a system that does provide for #1 (esp on Beethoven's 9th quartet with the cello plucking all through the second movement or the way the double-basses introduce the choral movement in his 9th symphony).
I'd say you want (1) a sub-woofer that can move great gobs of air at very low frequencies with just modest wattage and (2) electronic means of "loudness compensation" (boosting as per Art's curves). The great Kenwood pre-amps of yesteryear had 4-pot loudness compensation that (together with proper gain management) could track hunky-dory. Or any number of other dial-in compensations you can access.
B.
Heh, a good point I probably can't get around.....It needs to be loud enough to hear with my human ears!
I'll have to see how it goes...hoping that what I chose rounds out the audible sound at...reasonable volumes (not necessarily whisper quiet) without shaking the structure much. 😛
I decided to pull the trigger on the Wavecor driver. Saw this quote about the older model: "This driver has a physical Xmax of 7mm, but through Klippel measurement, it was found to have acceptable distortion levels at excursions over 13mm!" (From here) I also saw another quote about the Anarchy xmax being more like 8mm depending on how you want to measure it, I think? Point being, seemed xmax wasn't as differentiated between the 2 as I'd have thought... and given that the Wavecor is designed as (marketed?) as a sub vs a woofer....pushed me that direction.
PE says they'll be out of stock of them for another 3 months, Solen.ca had several, but a bit more expensive to ship to the US....but Meniscus had a sale going on, and only ONE of the SW182BD04's in stock (And no 03s...), so seemed to be calling to me to buy that one. 🙃 $124 shipped to my door? Reasonable....same cost as a Dayton Epique 7 would have been, but models better in an even smaller enclosure, IIRC.
I'll start a new thread when I start the build....that'll be a bit yet, but wanted to get the driver nailed down, especially since stock is limited on the Wavecor and the Anarchy. Planning on walnut ply, I think. Got my S2000 kit finished this weekend, enjoying those on their own for now!
A bit of a head-scratcher really . . . I don't think the answers are in your driver choice or WinISD room acoustics pretty much trump everything.
Sidebar: I notice, as is often the case, many advisers ignore the requirements ignore the requirements as set out in the OP.
Xmax is irrelevant. My desktop speakers contain 5" Kevlar woofers. If I can see the drivers moving I know the neighbours are about to bang on the walls! Subsequently, port air velocity is also irrelevant.
'Musical' quality of the sub doesn't come from the sub. The musicality, sharpness, and punch of the lower frequencies is found in the overtones as opposed to the fundamentals. Your starting point should be the S2000s whose quality will be easily overwhelmed by the sub. Your crossover point is crucial. I'd guess at around 70Hz to avoid mud.
The lower the frequency the more easily it travels through solids. For your purposes I'd choose a vented sub tuned on the high side, say 40-50Hz. Your neighbours will appreciate the accelerated drop-off.
Sidebar: I notice, as is often the case, many advisers ignore the requirements ignore the requirements as set out in the OP.
Xmax is irrelevant. My desktop speakers contain 5" Kevlar woofers. If I can see the drivers moving I know the neighbours are about to bang on the walls! Subsequently, port air velocity is also irrelevant.
'Musical' quality of the sub doesn't come from the sub. The musicality, sharpness, and punch of the lower frequencies is found in the overtones as opposed to the fundamentals. Your starting point should be the S2000s whose quality will be easily overwhelmed by the sub. Your crossover point is crucial. I'd guess at around 70Hz to avoid mud.
The lower the frequency the more easily it travels through solids. For your purposes I'd choose a vented sub tuned on the high side, say 40-50Hz. Your neighbours will appreciate the accelerated drop-off.
How about two 5.5" Epiques opposed? They require very little volume and have great Klippel results for what it's worth
Surtsey,
Your advice is what I'd expect from an ex-dj whose "subs only exist to annoy my neighbours."🙄
No complaints from my apartment neighbors with sub response flat to 25Hz, but I'm not trying to annoy them, just like hearing the fundamental notes that a speaker like the Carmody S2000 kit (or your desktop system) won't provide.
Your advice is what I'd expect from an ex-dj whose "subs only exist to annoy my neighbours."🙄
No complaints from my apartment neighbors with sub response flat to 25Hz, but I'm not trying to annoy them, just like hearing the fundamental notes that a speaker like the Carmody S2000 kit (or your desktop system) won't provide.
As usual my comments have the same detractors with the same arguments.
(1) In music there are very few naturally generated notes below 40Hz. The musical aspect of any note is defined through the overtones. This is why if you wire up a bare tweeter you can still hear the tune of the bass line. Please don't mention church organs unless you can provide details of church organ music that you listen to on a regular basis.
(2) Crossover points and driver response frequencies are rarely absolute. More accurately it's an efficiency range. A driver / cabinet bottoming out at 50Hz will still produce 40Hz - it just requires more power to reproduce the lower frequencies. In theory, you could use an equalizer, crank the 31hz frequency up to +10dB and be flat to 40Hz on your output.
(3) Unless you are a studio engineer producing music or building systems for commercial sale all the data gathered from microphones and simulations is a little moot. I guarantee that your personal hearing is not 20Hz - 20Khz +/- 3db.
The older I get the more I appreciate bullet tweeters.
As this is 'DIY' audio real-world users I'd assume practical users would be interested in producing 'the sound they like' rather than a hobbiest's scientific project, In truth if the OP really wanted flat to 30Hz it'd be quicker, cheaper, and easier to buy something like a Wharfedale D8. Or maybe some users are so arrogant and deluded as to believe they can do better than the entire Wharfedale payroll by using free Internet software?
And to crush your anecdotal insert, for the record . . . you, me, and the OP live in totally different homes with totally different neighbours.
Seriously, dude - don't start with me.
(1) In music there are very few naturally generated notes below 40Hz. The musical aspect of any note is defined through the overtones. This is why if you wire up a bare tweeter you can still hear the tune of the bass line. Please don't mention church organs unless you can provide details of church organ music that you listen to on a regular basis.
(2) Crossover points and driver response frequencies are rarely absolute. More accurately it's an efficiency range. A driver / cabinet bottoming out at 50Hz will still produce 40Hz - it just requires more power to reproduce the lower frequencies. In theory, you could use an equalizer, crank the 31hz frequency up to +10dB and be flat to 40Hz on your output.
(3) Unless you are a studio engineer producing music or building systems for commercial sale all the data gathered from microphones and simulations is a little moot. I guarantee that your personal hearing is not 20Hz - 20Khz +/- 3db.
The older I get the more I appreciate bullet tweeters.
As this is 'DIY' audio real-world users I'd assume practical users would be interested in producing 'the sound they like' rather than a hobbiest's scientific project, In truth if the OP really wanted flat to 30Hz it'd be quicker, cheaper, and easier to buy something like a Wharfedale D8. Or maybe some users are so arrogant and deluded as to believe they can do better than the entire Wharfedale payroll by using free Internet software?
And to crush your anecdotal insert, for the record . . . you, me, and the OP live in totally different homes with totally different neighbours.
Seriously, dude - don't start with me.
DIY stands for "do it yourself", not "quicker, cheaper, and easier", if MilwNate wanted to buy a Wharfedale D8, he wouldn't have bought the Carmody S2000 kit or the SW182BD04 on sale from Meniscus, or started this thread 🙂.
1) The low B on a five string bass is 31 Hz, been pretty common in music for a long time. Sure, if you don't care to hear that low, don't bother, the upper harmonics are there.
2) I use equalizers in practice, not theory, but not to the point where the driver "bottoms out", in which case the driver is past Xmax and has reached Xlim and sounds like crap, not bass.
3) I still have no problem hearing 25 Hz at levels that don't cause anything in the room to shake, rattle or roll, but wish I could still hear 4kHz at a conversational level without hearing aids 😢.
Cheers,
Art
1) The low B on a five string bass is 31 Hz, been pretty common in music for a long time. Sure, if you don't care to hear that low, don't bother, the upper harmonics are there.
2) I use equalizers in practice, not theory, but not to the point where the driver "bottoms out", in which case the driver is past Xmax and has reached Xlim and sounds like crap, not bass.
3) I still have no problem hearing 25 Hz at levels that don't cause anything in the room to shake, rattle or roll, but wish I could still hear 4kHz at a conversational level without hearing aids 😢.
Cheers,
Art
I've used the Anarchy 7" quite a bit and really like it. I have also used SB23MFCL45-4 8" and like it quite a bit. Anarchy I used in .5 cuft, the SB .75 cu ft.
Thanks for the feedback! Unfortunately, the SB 8s are too wide for me, my cabinet needs to be 9" wide or less, AND I need room for a grille frame.
I considered one of the 5.5s.....but 2 wouldn't work... I don't want to fire one towards the wall that's <18" behind where the sub will go, nor to the sides....and 2 won't fit on the front with my constraints.
Thanks for your thoughts and experiences. Fair point that room acoustics will probably be the bigger issue than the driver itself! Interesting to think about the overtones....I'll keep that in mind on the crossover. So far, not liking the S2000s in my room/situation, so we'll see if they get the ports stuffed/blocked, crossovers modified, or replaced with something different......,
Heh, exactly on DIY. I want to make a cabinet that fits a specific setup, and SAF is a factor there, too... She'd rather see a vintage-looking walnut box with vintage-y grille fabric than a modern cube... and again, given my space limitations, The Wharfdale wouldn't fit.
Recieved my Wavecor driver yesterday. It LOOKS good..... I'll sit on it while I sort out my mains, finalize the cabinet/amp setup/design, and save a few bucks.
I have my S2000s finished, and put into an old phonograph box (behind the original speaker grill fabric), which doubles as our TV stand........and so far not a real fan of them. Felt that way with a single one assembled/testing in free air...... so I don't think it's JUST the listening setup/box they're inside of. (Although that is making them boomier....could stuff the ports and start with that...) Thinking about this more, I suspect my own hearing issues (I have a dip beyond "normal" for my age at ~4khz IIRC), combined with the downward slope of the frequency response (voicing) on these might not be a good combo for my tastes. But I'll have to play with them more and confirm it's the speakers themselves.... but your point #3 Art makes me think harder that I may want/desire a flatter or even upward response in my main speakers...I can always recap some old Minimus 7s I have and put them in the same setup and see if those sound better to me....
We always tend to end up in the weeds with these conversations. There is so much gas-lighting, pedantry and technical arguments brought to support our individual ideologies.
A five-string bass may produce a fundamental bass note of 31Hz but how many bands use a five-string bass? That's like ripping my house apart and installing 8ft high doors in case a giant chooses to visit.
I mention the DN8 because I'm practical. Big box manufacturers typically use 20 litres for an 8" ported driver. Despite your shape restrictions you're working in the same volume ball-park. A bit of reverse engineering may prove insightful. The snobs will talk about driver quality but that's consumer pride. When it comes to small drivers Sony are paying a buck-fifty for units you are paying $50 for. Ordering a million units merits a serious quantity discount! Obviously, there's a reason the branding is removed as it would damage domestic sales.
Have you ever wondered why you can't get TS parameters for cheap drivers? It's because some you guys are smart enough to match them up.
Bygones.
I suspected the S2000s would always prove problematic. Nice on paper but don't have the capacity to fill a room when desired.
Finally, the missing question what do listen you to? My HTPC rocks with movies, hip-hop and UKG - sucks with everything else. Desktop system is wicked with soul, jazz, jazz-funk - not so good with the action movies. Bedroom system lacks punch at high volume.
A five-string bass may produce a fundamental bass note of 31Hz but how many bands use a five-string bass? That's like ripping my house apart and installing 8ft high doors in case a giant chooses to visit.
I mention the DN8 because I'm practical. Big box manufacturers typically use 20 litres for an 8" ported driver. Despite your shape restrictions you're working in the same volume ball-park. A bit of reverse engineering may prove insightful. The snobs will talk about driver quality but that's consumer pride. When it comes to small drivers Sony are paying a buck-fifty for units you are paying $50 for. Ordering a million units merits a serious quantity discount! Obviously, there's a reason the branding is removed as it would damage domestic sales.
Have you ever wondered why you can't get TS parameters for cheap drivers? It's because some you guys are smart enough to match them up.
Bygones.
I suspected the S2000s would always prove problematic. Nice on paper but don't have the capacity to fill a room when desired.
Finally, the missing question what do listen you to? My HTPC rocks with movies, hip-hop and UKG - sucks with everything else. Desktop system is wicked with soul, jazz, jazz-funk - not so good with the action movies. Bedroom system lacks punch at high volume.
Out of curiosity, how's the build going? What driver and design did you finally narrow down to?
Will be nice to get an update 🙂
I'm trying to build a tiny sub and it's going to be either PCs Pony or a push-push design with epique 7s.
With pony, I feel there might be better driver options since the original is over 13 years old.
And with push push like kc62s, there aren't many diy projects that do that and not sure why.
Trying to go as low as I can 25-30hz ideally.
Will be nice to get an update 🙂
I'm trying to build a tiny sub and it's going to be either PCs Pony or a push-push design with epique 7s.
With pony, I feel there might be better driver options since the original is over 13 years old.
And with push push like kc62s, there aren't many diy projects that do that and not sure why.
Trying to go as low as I can 25-30hz ideally.