The budget brand that I have found to be reliable is Samson, check them out. This brand is the mainstay on the island where I moved to for 4 years. It manages just fine in the Tropics and just keeps doing what it's made to do
Have you taken your bass and guitar into any shops and asked to plug into any demo units? When we started out with Jiya's school lessons, we went to the local music shop and plugged into all the mixer brands on demo, as well as all the amps and active PA speakers. The shops can be very accommodating like this, and you can select the sound of the equipment that you like. Neither Jiya nor I liked how the bass guitar sounded on the Soundcraft mixers, and I have had one unit with a bricked USB section in the past, too. We liked the sound of our bass best plugged into the Yamaha MG series, and I also found them to be quietest of the bunch in the shop. They have super classy preamps and tone and compressor on each channel and built like a tank. I think your choice of the A&H would be better in the long run over the Xenyx and I do recommend you take a look at Yamaha. The price premium is in the build quality and reliability
Maybe sourced from different OEMs. The consoles are super budget, but Bheringer do seem to be more ambitious with the digital and synth products
Crocobar
I hope you do check this whole video. The MG10 in the vid is too small, I have the MG12XU and that has four compressors, comprehensive channel routing and mute and two output faders
A good followup video. The 10XUF is a 12XU with fewer channels. He explains all the features in detail, and this applies to any mixer brand. I think watching this whole video and others on the A&H will help in your decisions
Came to this kind of late, so haven't read the whole thread. Here we go anyway: A common family of recording interfaces for professional voice over work is the Focusrite Scarlett series. They shold be good for whatever style of music too. https://focusrite.com/en/scarlett
A bit more upscale are the Universal Audio Apollo interfaces. Better A/D and D/A than Scarlett plus DSP for effects processing. https://www.uaudio.com/audio-interfaces/apollo.html
OTOH, Behringer is not so much used at the same professional level. Its kind of more at the very low cost end, with sound quality sort of proportional to that.
Mixing can be done in the box; that is to say, mixing is often done in a DAW program on a PC (DAW = Digital Audio Workstation). Sometimes in-the-box mixing is used for live performance too. https://www.musicradar.com/news/the-best-live-daws-find-your-ideal-performing-partner
Regarding DAW software, Reaper may be the lowest cost mostly-full-featured DAW but the sound at mixdown was far from ideal last time I tried it. They have/had it so that all tracks go through pitch shifting DSP even if no pitch shifting is being used, the effect of which is hardly transparent at the audio output. More sophisticated software such as Apple Logic allows each track to enabled or disabled from such processing. Best to check carefully before spending money on a program, is all.
A bit more upscale are the Universal Audio Apollo interfaces. Better A/D and D/A than Scarlett plus DSP for effects processing. https://www.uaudio.com/audio-interfaces/apollo.html
OTOH, Behringer is not so much used at the same professional level. Its kind of more at the very low cost end, with sound quality sort of proportional to that.
Mixing can be done in the box; that is to say, mixing is often done in a DAW program on a PC (DAW = Digital Audio Workstation). Sometimes in-the-box mixing is used for live performance too. https://www.musicradar.com/news/the-best-live-daws-find-your-ideal-performing-partner
Regarding DAW software, Reaper may be the lowest cost mostly-full-featured DAW but the sound at mixdown was far from ideal last time I tried it. They have/had it so that all tracks go through pitch shifting DSP even if no pitch shifting is being used, the effect of which is hardly transparent at the audio output. More sophisticated software such as Apple Logic allows each track to enabled or disabled from such processing. Best to check carefully before spending money on a program, is all.
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Have seen noise complaints about Behringer mixers. Also lots of complaints about no help with diy service. Send dingy Behringer to the factory authorized repair shop or trash it.
I've been using a Peavey PV8 mixer for home recording. Bought it with a bad master volume pot and a dead R channel for $35, fixed it for $3 parts. I had A PV8 USB https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/peavey-pv6-pv8-usb I bought new $125 for a while until a burglar took it. It has it's own D/A and usb outlet (type C) so no D/A required on computer. I use linux, the latency doesn't crater with updates and they don't update you in the middle of the night the way Windows did going from 7 to 10. Lots of angry jorgan on windows users (organ synth on PC). PV8 has a single stereo master out, but is <$200. The monitor out pair has different hi/lo & volume selections available. There is an effect loop on 4 of the inputs (the ones with XLR inputs), the stereo inputs (RCA jacks) only use the master effects loop. The blue input 1/8" stereo jack to Intel chipset on the PC is another A/D interface on older PC's. I've used Audacity. Us dinosaurs do our mixing & effects before the recording is made. Amateurs don't have to pay the recording studio by the hour. Don't like something just record it again with different mix/effects/etc.
PV8 has no power amp internal, I buy those dead & fix them. CS800s is one current power amp for outdoors, Peavey M-2600 amp using indoors with no audience. Peavey SP2(2004) speakers on stands high at one end of the music room. I had Shure KSM27 condensor mikes to record my Sohmer piano but the burglar got those too. I'm using $30 Farnell (Newark) CM1800 mikes now, okay but nothing above 15000 hz. I only hear to 14000 hz anyway. Nothing above 7000 hz in guitar & bass IMHO. Cymbals, tinkly bells, those have some high frequencies.
Pitch shifting, blah! Autotune, Blah!!! Learn to play and sing before you start to record anything. A little reverb, now that could tempt me.
Happy shopping rehearsing & recording.
I've been using a Peavey PV8 mixer for home recording. Bought it with a bad master volume pot and a dead R channel for $35, fixed it for $3 parts. I had A PV8 USB https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/peavey-pv6-pv8-usb I bought new $125 for a while until a burglar took it. It has it's own D/A and usb outlet (type C) so no D/A required on computer. I use linux, the latency doesn't crater with updates and they don't update you in the middle of the night the way Windows did going from 7 to 10. Lots of angry jorgan on windows users (organ synth on PC). PV8 has a single stereo master out, but is <$200. The monitor out pair has different hi/lo & volume selections available. There is an effect loop on 4 of the inputs (the ones with XLR inputs), the stereo inputs (RCA jacks) only use the master effects loop. The blue input 1/8" stereo jack to Intel chipset on the PC is another A/D interface on older PC's. I've used Audacity. Us dinosaurs do our mixing & effects before the recording is made. Amateurs don't have to pay the recording studio by the hour. Don't like something just record it again with different mix/effects/etc.
PV8 has no power amp internal, I buy those dead & fix them. CS800s is one current power amp for outdoors, Peavey M-2600 amp using indoors with no audience. Peavey SP2(2004) speakers on stands high at one end of the music room. I had Shure KSM27 condensor mikes to record my Sohmer piano but the burglar got those too. I'm using $30 Farnell (Newark) CM1800 mikes now, okay but nothing above 15000 hz. I only hear to 14000 hz anyway. Nothing above 7000 hz in guitar & bass IMHO. Cymbals, tinkly bells, those have some high frequencies.
Pitch shifting, blah! Autotune, Blah!!! Learn to play and sing before you start to record anything. A little reverb, now that could tempt me.
Happy shopping rehearsing & recording.
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X32 is by far the most common mixing desk in the UK used professionally for live sound. To say that Behringer isn't used by pros is more true for the lower end equipment. Build quality/repairability is kind of a complicated subject with the x32. There are some good points and also bad points. To get something with better build quality would be many times the cost though.
That brings up a whole different subject, learning to be a musician, and in particular learning to be a guitarist. There is a whole lot that can be said about both subjects. Most people make some big mistakes when first learning, and those mistakes can be very hard to unlearn.
Some things a lot of people don't know, or don't know very well:
Why is guitar fretted with the left hand and the strings plucked with the right hand? (for a right-handed player)
What are the screws for at the bridge end of an electric guitar, and how should they be adjusted?
How should the neck be adjusted? (truss rod)
Which pickup is best for most playing?
How important is correct pitch as compared to correct timing?
How to learn how to bend strings?
How to solo?
Best way to practice?
What string gauge is best to start with?
What is 'lilt' and why does it matter?
How should the guitar volume and tone controls be adjusted?
How to play in time with a groove in a song so that your playing grooves in exactly the same way?
What is an easy way to tune a guitar to play along with a recording?
How to perform musical ornamentation techniques?
The list goes on and on...
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@Markw4 :
Some of these I have answers for, but I'd be delighted to see your explanations if you got time!
I don't have good answers for others... Please do tell if you feel like it!
Some of these I have answers for, but I'd be delighted to see your explanations if you got time!
That one I can do: action and intonation adjustments...
Did that too...
I only have ever played single coil strat. The bridge pickup seems to produce the tone I like the most but I'm sure there is more to it?
Timing is more noticeable but it seems to me it's like asking whether it is better to breathe or to eat ...
I took David Gilmour's gauges...
I don't have good answers for others... Please do tell if you feel like it!
That's not an unusual preference at first. The bridge pickup gives a thinner sound that is more rich in harmonics. And a fuller sound that fills up more of the frequency spectrum can seem subjectively better when practicing alone. However, most of the guitar and other instrument sounds heard on records are voiced to fill up more or less separate, complementary segments of the frequency spectrum. That's not rigidly true, but it tends to make for the best sounding, least muddy and congested mixes.
Also, if you like a bit of distortion such as in blues, or more distortion as in some other styles, then harmonics created by the distortion often sound best if not competing for frequency space with string harmonics.
Regarding pitch versus time as and which is more important, it can depend a lot on the style of music and on personal opinion. However, for popular and or dance music a pretty good case can be made that timing is more important. An interesting demonstration that can be found on a bass guitar DVD by Victor Wooten, entitled "Groove Workshop." The DVD is a good and inspiring introduction into playing in time.
Also in the case guitar, its a fretted instrument which means unless you are bending strings or using a whammy/tremolo bar then pitch is quantized for you. Its basically kind of like pushing buttons, that is, it helps to make that part of playing easier to learn. OTOH, plucking strings is not quantized, you have to be able to quantize it yourself. Moreover a lot of what separates amateurs from professionals is ability to play precisely in time. That's why always practicing with a metronome is so important.
This kind of brings us to the subject of lilt. Let's take jazz for example, its written as though eighth are to be played. It is one example of notes being played in time other than as they are notated on paper. Lilt refers to playing notes of the same nominal duration, say, for example, eighth notes, as longer or shorter in duration than written, and doing so in a repeating pattern, but so that the total duration, again in the case of two consecutive eighth notes, still adds up to one quarter note. In the example of (traditional) jazz, starting on a quarter note beat, the first eighth note is played in time duration as equal to the first two notes of an eighth note triplet tied together, and the second eighth note of the quarter note is played like the last note of the triplet. For other styles of music the note durations may be in some different ratio. In a way, maybe the most peculiar ratio to get right is for funk and similar styles.
Along with tempo, a particular lilt is one of things involving time that can make every song on an album sound different and fresh as compared to every other song. There other things having to do with pitch and song form, etc., that are involved too, but not changing up tempo and lilt a little can make an set of songs on an album less distinct from one another. OTOH modest changes is tempo and lilt can help make songs sound unique while still comfortably staying in one genre.
Okay, that's enough writing for now. Some of these music related subjects can't really be done proper justice in a few words. A lot has been left out for brevity already, including exceptions to the above. Maybe some other folks will have some comments to add as well. Other than that if we are going to continue in this off topic way maybe a new thread should be opened more for this kind of subject matter.
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...aaaand we're back to the discussion and uncertainty. 🙂 @Randy Bassinga damnit! (kidding) There is a fair amount of complaints about jittery and unreliable performance of that Behringer model on the amazon site as well. I kinda hate it: I can easily live with mediocre performance (I mean, Gilmour is on record saying that you can do most things with a four-track tape recorder) but things working erratically bother me.
Sigh...
Four track tape and entry-level quality digital are two very different things. Tape, while not necessarily low in distortion and noise, typically sounds more musical as versus low-ish performance digital. The reasons why are probably more than we need to go into here. Only point is that its probably better not to make assumptions to the effect of equating musicality of 4-track tape sound to that of entry-level Behringer sound.
EDIT: Would just add that the above is an example of something I learned the hard way. Just trying to help keep the next guy from experiencing the same disappointment.
EDIT: Would just add that the above is an example of something I learned the hard way. Just trying to help keep the next guy from experiencing the same disappointment.
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Of course, and i appreciate all the feedback and advice I am getting here, really, I do!
I looked a bit more, and there is more nuance even in the Behringer issue -ain't there always? 🙂 The 1204 model with effects seems to be of higher quality than 1202 and some prevous models in that niche. It is possible that Behringer made an effort with that one or got lucky. So, I am not completely ruling it out just yet...
I looked a bit more, and there is more nuance even in the Behringer issue -ain't there always? 🙂 The 1204 model with effects seems to be of higher quality than 1202 and some prevous models in that niche. It is possible that Behringer made an effort with that one or got lucky. So, I am not completely ruling it out just yet...
Don't recall if you said how old your daughter is. But suppose she got a D on her report card, then raised to a C-. Would that be good enough to satisfy dad?
EDIT: Maybe the above is not too impertinent. You see, my daughter wanted to play guitar, sing, and eventually perform with a series of bands. Although I had some experience in sound reinforcement years before, learning to record, mix, master, and going through various recording interfaces, mics, hardware effects boxes (e.g. a Distressor) I found out for myself what all the pro's had been telling me all along: Don't buy junk! You will outgrow it and want something better before long. They were right. I was like a horse that could be led to water but thought I knew better than to drink. Unfortunately for me, it was the pool of experience that I chose to forego. Paid for it later. Finally ended up with a collection of really good equipment (and experience with how to use it). Now my daughter is older and is a professional voice actress. Most of the good stuff I gave to her to help her with her new career.
EDIT: Maybe the above is not too impertinent. You see, my daughter wanted to play guitar, sing, and eventually perform with a series of bands. Although I had some experience in sound reinforcement years before, learning to record, mix, master, and going through various recording interfaces, mics, hardware effects boxes (e.g. a Distressor) I found out for myself what all the pro's had been telling me all along: Don't buy junk! You will outgrow it and want something better before long. They were right. I was like a horse that could be led to water but thought I knew better than to drink. Unfortunately for me, it was the pool of experience that I chose to forego. Paid for it later. Finally ended up with a collection of really good equipment (and experience with how to use it). Now my daughter is older and is a professional voice actress. Most of the good stuff I gave to her to help her with her new career.
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I bought that A&H recently (nonFX version). At the price point it does tick all the boxes. Mainly, as you pointed out, because it has a built-in 4x4 audio interface. You get 4 mono mic/line channels (two of which have high impedance instrument inputs plus 2 stereo inputs - one with basic eq and the other with just a level and aux send. 5 channels have an auxillary and a monitor send. All channels have pre fade listen switches and there is a quite a comprehensive master section with effectively 3 monitor outs (one of which is headphones) and several ways to route and listen to your sends, mix and USB returns. Best of all, the unit also comes with a free copy of Cubase 12LE. At the price point this is the best lil’ mixer you can get.
with Cubase loaded on your laptop you can easily record 4 sources at once, as individual tracks in Cubase, and extensively process them once in Cubase (really extensively - Cubase comes with an incredible range of professional processors, effects, editors and instruments). Spend the extra cash on a pair of powered monitors (I got a pair of Yamaha HS7s) and you will have a pretty powerful recording setup - especially for a lounge setup.
with Cubase loaded on your laptop you can easily record 4 sources at once, as individual tracks in Cubase, and extensively process them once in Cubase (really extensively - Cubase comes with an incredible range of professional processors, effects, editors and instruments). Spend the extra cash on a pair of powered monitors (I got a pair of Yamaha HS7s) and you will have a pretty powerful recording setup - especially for a lounge setup.
Why does it bother you?
You have one into your bass stomp no?
To be honest, i took me some years to use one into my pedalboard ( it didn't had that 'pedalboard' name at that time).
How many bands started without any of this treatments availlable? A lot...
To have feature is nice, it is even better if you need them.
Rehearsal at home with daughter and friend... you are already pleased with a shared amp if i understand right.
Then no need for ultrahighend studio tools ( which will be availlable as plug ins into a daw anyway...) or whatever. Keep it simple and easily playable.
You have one into your bass stomp no?
To be honest, i took me some years to use one into my pedalboard ( it didn't had that 'pedalboard' name at that time).
How many bands started without any of this treatments availlable? A lot...
To have feature is nice, it is even better if you need them.
Rehearsal at home with daughter and friend... you are already pleased with a shared amp if i understand right.
Then no need for ultrahighend studio tools ( which will be availlable as plug ins into a daw anyway...) or whatever. Keep it simple and easily playable.
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I do have one compressor for bass, true. Perhaps this is enough. I have very little intuition about compression, and somebody in this thread said that it is very important... But again, if it were essential, every board would have it...
I think we're back at A&H Zedi-10FX!
I think we're back at A&H Zedi-10FX!
If you mix in a DAW, sometimes there are various compressors and peak limiters to try. Bass can be difficult to tame if the player is still learning to control dynamics. At the more extreme end something like Waves L1 or L2 may be turn out to be of some use (these are VST plugins, of course).