on a 3k budget, i want to build a pair of great speakers for mastering.
currently using dynaudio core59's and eve audio sc408's and as good as they are they're better suited for mixing
now used i can easily find a pair tyler acoustics mm5 or d2s's but from the week ive spent on here just reading you all could help me come up with something even better
i think i want to do something along the lines of the mm5's but with a ribbon tweeter.
i need the guidance, i have madisound and pe open but wish i could plot it out before hand. im sure someone knows a ew softwares to do so
currently using dynaudio core59's and eve audio sc408's and as good as they are they're better suited for mixing
now used i can easily find a pair tyler acoustics mm5 or d2s's but from the week ive spent on here just reading you all could help me come up with something even better
i think i want to do something along the lines of the mm5's but with a ribbon tweeter.
i need the guidance, i have madisound and pe open but wish i could plot it out before hand. im sure someone knows a ew softwares to do so
and from what i just found, the mm5's upgraded are only
RS180P-8
RS270P-8A
seas millennium tweeter
so i guess the sound is based on tylers crossover.
i was looking at swapping the rs180p-8 for the ES180TiA and using an amt2-4 or better
RS180P-8
RS270P-8A
seas millennium tweeter
so i guess the sound is based on tylers crossover.
i was looking at swapping the rs180p-8 for the ES180TiA and using an amt2-4 or better
Yes, but it would have to be a process. I also see you're interested in available completed systems. If you're willing to try this and you have ideas from other systems you like, maybe you can show us pictures and tell us what you like about them and how you want those aspects in your system.
im not afraid of the process, im an engineer by trade audio engineer by passion.
i do plan on running dsp with the speakers. power wise at the moment i have a Parasound a21+ sitting around that sounds night and day vs my xpa2 so more than likely the a21+ will be used for power unless i manage to sell both amps and get something better.
i dont plan to use a sub as the few rooms ive been in with mm5's easily dig into the high 20hz range rather easy
as far as mm5x's themselves, i find the mids to be too forward and was told simply swapping from the alum cone drives to the paper and adding 2 4 Ohm 20W resistors help recess the mids a bit.
i know for a fact i can master with the eve's or dynaudio's but simple .7db changes on a master i dont hear as ive heard with mm5x's.
room wise, 26.5Wx45.5Lx14.5H. plan to have the speakers(similar to the mm5x's) about 6.5 feet from me and there's a ton of trapping already in this suite as ive been using the dynaudio core59 and eve audio sc408's with a dynaudio core subwoofer. there's a ton of lowend in here yet controlled. i'll be making this suite a dedicating mastering suite no mixing will be done in here, the mixing equipment and monitoring as already being moved to my main mix room.
i mainly master r&b and hiphop music, been mixing for 17 years but only been mastering a solid year.
Then you must be familiar with the idea that you can equalise many of your problems but there are some that won't go away with careful equalising. These are your acoustic issues and they should be the reason for changes that you make.
I'd do a 3 way design.
SB34NRXL75-8 LF in 90l vented enclosure
Scanspeak 18M8631T MF in 5l sealed sub compartment
Seas T35-C002 HF in Jantzen WG
Xover at 300 and 2200 Hz 2nd order passive.
SB34NRXL75-8 LF in 90l vented enclosure
Scanspeak 18M8631T MF in 5l sealed sub compartment
Seas T35-C002 HF in Jantzen WG
Xover at 300 and 2200 Hz 2nd order passive.
This 3 way combo will play 115dB all day and sound very accurate, non fatiguing. Obviously more of a mid field design.
If you wanted a nearfield, do a 2 way with the T35-C002 in WG and 18W8542 in 20l vented, 2.2k 2nd order passive xover.
If you wanted a nearfield, do a 2 way with the T35-C002 in WG and 18W8542 in 20l vented, 2.2k 2nd order passive xover.
I assume mastering is the more nearfield speakers that the producers
would use to mix. At average to Med levels
Not opposed to some studio monitors more to present
to the client or artist. Where the playback can be higher SPL.
Far as viewing or being familiar with some driver choices
you might be playing around with using.
Likely to step into the world of frequency response and
impedance data. Or FRD and ZMA files to be used in
design software.
Far as baffle simulation in full space
and then a large collection of passive and OPA
active filters to design the crossover. Your likely looking at
Virtuix Cad a popular freeware with a lot of features
Where you could test and view drivers
would use to mix. At average to Med levels
Not opposed to some studio monitors more to present
to the client or artist. Where the playback can be higher SPL.
Far as viewing or being familiar with some driver choices
you might be playing around with using.
Likely to step into the world of frequency response and
impedance data. Or FRD and ZMA files to be used in
design software.
Far as baffle simulation in full space
and then a large collection of passive and OPA
active filters to design the crossover. Your likely looking at
Virtuix Cad a popular freeware with a lot of features
Where you could test and view drivers
I’d definitely consider it with more space
I’m definitely doing a 3 way with very similar crossovers points but I’ll be using dsp as well so I can really dial it in
Mastering isn’t near field it’s more midfield
I have high spl nearfields that truly aren’t near enough. The eve’s are but I prefer for them to be in the mix room as I’ve been mixing on them for years.
To be 100% honest I’ll probably end up just buying the Tyler mm5x’s. I wanted to do this as a project for myself, my father and my son for us todo something together not to mention to use in business however due to lymphoma, I’m often in pain and really don’t see where I’ll have the time to complete this. I’d much rather focus on getting better than stressing myself out trying to get these speakers the way I want them when Tyler can and will do all that at a cost of course
If you have workshop and tools.
Then just building a project together is a incredible experience.
If design process seems stressful.
build something fun.
Work up something easy
There is so many drivers out there and concepts to build
just thinking can be overwhelming.
for monitoring I would want specific mid driver and tweeters.
and just for monitoring at closer distance. Sensitivity not issue.
Could use ribbons or planars. just want clean production. not worried
about super high power levels.
Then just building a project together is a incredible experience.
If design process seems stressful.
build something fun.
Work up something easy
There is so many drivers out there and concepts to build
just thinking can be overwhelming.
for monitoring I would want specific mid driver and tweeters.
and just for monitoring at closer distance. Sensitivity not issue.
Could use ribbons or planars. just want clean production. not worried
about super high power levels.
My father and business partner have every tool however it’s the pain I go through that’s the concern when it comes to building vs just buying.
The speakers at hand that I wanted to recreate myself are Tyler Acoustics mm5x’s.
It’s well documented that they use Dayton drivers and a seas tweeter.
Personally I wanted to use the exact drivers however a AMT or planar tweeter. Over this weekend I heard a pair of towers that were made with 2 rs225, 1 5inch phl midrange and a Hi-Vi RT2C-A planar… WOW
they definitely were high fidelity, not sure on the accuracy if I could hear .5db moves, but strictly playback of songs I knew well or mixed previously sounded amazing and the room is smaller than mine with much less treatment. My room has be built and tuned. Great diffusion, absorption, traps, tuned traps, a massive 7 inch thick sloping cloud, my room has 20k with of treatment and is a pristine acoustic space and those speakers I’m sure would sound even better in my room. We’re actually getting together on Wednesday and he’s bringing the speakers to me to test in my room and since I have room analysis software and a few earthworks measurement mics I’m going to have a chance put them through the ringer and do a master on them.
I know headroom, but I’m trying to understand how the hell he’s powering them without killing that mid or tweeter.
He’s running 2 Bryston 21’s!!! That’s a ton of power on those particular drivers but they’ve been going strong for over a year. Granted I use to run a bryston 4b on ns10s for YEARS! They were rated 120watts max yet I was running 300rms to them with completely unmixed music.
Get the overall balance and midrange right then switched to the genelec 1037s to finish the song.
I ran that setup over 7/8 years before I quit music and sold a lot of stuff.
The speakers at hand that I wanted to recreate myself are Tyler Acoustics mm5x’s.
It’s well documented that they use Dayton drivers and a seas tweeter.
Personally I wanted to use the exact drivers however a AMT or planar tweeter. Over this weekend I heard a pair of towers that were made with 2 rs225, 1 5inch phl midrange and a Hi-Vi RT2C-A planar… WOW
they definitely were high fidelity, not sure on the accuracy if I could hear .5db moves, but strictly playback of songs I knew well or mixed previously sounded amazing and the room is smaller than mine with much less treatment. My room has be built and tuned. Great diffusion, absorption, traps, tuned traps, a massive 7 inch thick sloping cloud, my room has 20k with of treatment and is a pristine acoustic space and those speakers I’m sure would sound even better in my room. We’re actually getting together on Wednesday and he’s bringing the speakers to me to test in my room and since I have room analysis software and a few earthworks measurement mics I’m going to have a chance put them through the ringer and do a master on them.
I know headroom, but I’m trying to understand how the hell he’s powering them without killing that mid or tweeter.
He’s running 2 Bryston 21’s!!! That’s a ton of power on those particular drivers but they’ve been going strong for over a year. Granted I use to run a bryston 4b on ns10s for YEARS! They were rated 120watts max yet I was running 300rms to them with completely unmixed music.
Get the overall balance and midrange right then switched to the genelec 1037s to finish the song.
I ran that setup over 7/8 years before I quit music and sold a lot of stuff.
Just came across some d1x’s for 2900… the goto mastering engineer I sent clients to before I began mastering uses d1x’s and I absolutely love them. I think he has 2 subs as well. I’ll have to call him and verify but for that price I’m willing to buy them immediately as long as all the drivers are working. They normally go for $5400 😳
I loved my big PMCs, but they needed ALOT of power to get the best from them. You'd be surprised how much power you can put into passive monitors if they're designed properly.
The RT2CA planars are pretty durable drivers. Dont worry about killing those so easily. They'll take 30W continuous if you HP them properly. The Dayton PHT1-6s with the big heatsink handle even more. Both tweeters are some of the best, most suitable planars available for high SPL.
I ran my Proac 2 ways high-passed with separate subs off a Pass Labs X250 and wasn't shy on the level. No issues at all, even after a few instances of mic FB. Converters didn't allow for anything higher than clipping to get through, acting as a limiter of sorts. I believe in using high quality glass fuses for worst case tweeter protection. It at least provides some safeguard, even if its slow in response. Trick is using the right amperage fuse for a given application.
The RT2CA planars are pretty durable drivers. Dont worry about killing those so easily. They'll take 30W continuous if you HP them properly. The Dayton PHT1-6s with the big heatsink handle even more. Both tweeters are some of the best, most suitable planars available for high SPL.
I ran my Proac 2 ways high-passed with separate subs off a Pass Labs X250 and wasn't shy on the level. No issues at all, even after a few instances of mic FB. Converters didn't allow for anything higher than clipping to get through, acting as a limiter of sorts. I believe in using high quality glass fuses for worst case tweeter protection. It at least provides some safeguard, even if its slow in response. Trick is using the right amperage fuse for a given application.
classic generalized scenario with teeters, is a using larger midrange.
So your really hoping to be crossed 2k. But to tame distortion 3k is where you need to be.
But often 2k is the point used. So old school trick, toss more inductors at it.
Use 3rd or 4th order crossover to reduce distortion if crossing low.
Or keep the mid small so your crossover is closer to 3k or even 4k.
A lot of those planar or Amt really like being way up at 4 or 5k.
Regardless even if not using them. Even a common dome
will appreciate a smaller mid. With the daytons very easy to find
a small mid in the reference or design series.
far as dome tweet many have Fs at around 1200 or 1300.
those gotta go high 2x over Fs or 3k just use 3rd order not 2nd
you mentioned the seas tweets. likely used cause they have
few classic designs at 600 or 800 Hz Fs so they can cross low.
expensive of course.
Dayton does few domes which will give some seas drivers.
a run for the money. Half the cost, same performance
RST28F = fabric dome
RST28A = aluminum dome
Fs for both down around 700 Hz range
I was looking at crossing 0-350/350-5k/5k up
I have 2 mini dsp’s
My dynaudio’s are crossed 0-385/385-5k/5k up
My eves are 0-285/285-3k/3k up
I can get better mixes from the eve’s but the dynaudios aren’t anywhere near as fatiguing so I’d opt for a similar crossing
As great as the eves sound they get a little too splashy and tinny at times. Maybe a reason why I noticed I often cut 3-3.5k range. The mix sound great but I notice when I use the eve’s I often see a 3-3.5k cut however with the dynaudios I don’t find myself cutting. 3.5, more like 2.4/2.7….
Often with the same things too.. Mixes from the dynaudios translate but the overall smoother mix comes from the eve’s… I guess b/c 3k is definitely a sensitive area to human ears and an amt being crossed at 3k kinda brings it out a bit that I control it
I have 2 mini dsp’s
My dynaudio’s are crossed 0-385/385-5k/5k up
My eves are 0-285/285-3k/3k up
I can get better mixes from the eve’s but the dynaudios aren’t anywhere near as fatiguing so I’d opt for a similar crossing
As great as the eves sound they get a little too splashy and tinny at times. Maybe a reason why I noticed I often cut 3-3.5k range. The mix sound great but I notice when I use the eve’s I often see a 3-3.5k cut however with the dynaudios I don’t find myself cutting. 3.5, more like 2.4/2.7….
Often with the same things too.. Mixes from the dynaudios translate but the overall smoother mix comes from the eve’s… I guess b/c 3k is definitely a sensitive area to human ears and an amt being crossed at 3k kinda brings it out a bit that I control it
Rule of thumb with a 25 - 28mm dome is to cross higher than 3k if you want it to play LOUD (over 100 dB with high crest factor music), otherwise the tweeter will run out of xmax and THD usually skyrockets below that, especially with more shallow HP slopes.
There are more forgiving tweeters that will cope better ie. Morel CAT378, MDT30, etc. Problem is also crossing in the sensitive 2 - 4k area, where our ears are super sensitive to any weirdness.
Ideally you want to have flat phase and amplitude from 500 - 10k, which is hard to achieve, especially with higher SPL requirements. The best dedicated cone mid I've heard and used for a high output 3 way is the Vifa / Peerless NE149W, which can be crossed as low as 300 hz and 3.5 - 4k while playing loud and clean with minimal phase lag. The VC on this driver is large for its size and uses a titanium former with alot of copper in gap. Its really a great driver and a shame they decided to make it impossible to purchase in small quantities. I generally prefer drivers with larger VCs. This usually correlates to lower power compression and better long term high SPL capability.
Aside from a capable cone mid, the other choice is a large dome ie SS D7608-9200 with a midbass filling in the 250 - 300 to 800 - 1k range. The best driver I've found for this purpose is a 6 - 7" midbass with a large VC (40 - 50+ mm) that has enough output for a few dB of BSC. Choices here are the SB 6MW150D, SS 18M8631T and B&C 8NDL51. To my ears, a system with a dedicated midbass has better resolution in the lower mids, considering not habjnf to deal with the upper midrange and being able to provide that realistic sounding drive with percussion, drums and piano. This is often missing on larger monitors due to lack of cone surface area and linear excursion. It also frees up the woofer from dealing with lower mids, further reducing IMD which q++qallows for easier enclosure dampening. Not having lower mids spill into the cabinet and potentially create standing wave modes is a great benefit, so you can use a smaller purpose built sealed enclosure for the midbass itself.
There are more forgiving tweeters that will cope better ie. Morel CAT378, MDT30, etc. Problem is also crossing in the sensitive 2 - 4k area, where our ears are super sensitive to any weirdness.
Ideally you want to have flat phase and amplitude from 500 - 10k, which is hard to achieve, especially with higher SPL requirements. The best dedicated cone mid I've heard and used for a high output 3 way is the Vifa / Peerless NE149W, which can be crossed as low as 300 hz and 3.5 - 4k while playing loud and clean with minimal phase lag. The VC on this driver is large for its size and uses a titanium former with alot of copper in gap. Its really a great driver and a shame they decided to make it impossible to purchase in small quantities. I generally prefer drivers with larger VCs. This usually correlates to lower power compression and better long term high SPL capability.
Aside from a capable cone mid, the other choice is a large dome ie SS D7608-9200 with a midbass filling in the 250 - 300 to 800 - 1k range. The best driver I've found for this purpose is a 6 - 7" midbass with a large VC (40 - 50+ mm) that has enough output for a few dB of BSC. Choices here are the SB 6MW150D, SS 18M8631T and B&C 8NDL51. To my ears, a system with a dedicated midbass has better resolution in the lower mids, considering not habjnf to deal with the upper midrange and being able to provide that realistic sounding drive with percussion, drums and piano. This is often missing on larger monitors due to lack of cone surface area and linear excursion. It also frees up the woofer from dealing with lower mids, further reducing IMD which q++qallows for easier enclosure dampening. Not having lower mids spill into the cabinet and potentially create standing wave modes is a great benefit, so you can use a smaller purpose built sealed enclosure for the midbass itself.
I officially just heard exactly what I want but they are fare out of budget at the moment, they’d be a chrismas present to myself if I did actually buy them
Hell I’m willing to pay some to remake them lol
https://oceanwayaudio.com/hr3-5-fl-reference-monitor/
Absolutely brilliant!!
Hell I’m willing to pay some to remake them lol
https://oceanwayaudio.com/hr3-5-fl-reference-monitor/
Absolutely brilliant!!
