^You probably do not understand what 'crest factor' is?*
It was the important words in Billshurv answer.
https://www.digido.com/portfolio-item/level-practices-part-1/
https://www.digido.com/portfolio-item/level-practices-part-2/
* please let me rephrase it as my comment wasn't supposed to be aggressive: do you understand what 'crest factor' is in the context of musical signal?
There is headroom yes( 'unused on top'), but more something in the 6db range rather than 20db ( for 80's pop music). 8db if you listen to something broadcasted ( radio/tv)... and if you listen to Metallica's 'death magnetic' something like 17db (!... listening to pink noise!).
With acoustic music ( and classical even more) there is 0db headroom, the whole dynamic range ( crest factor of 20db) will be used very probably if it is dynamic music ( pianissimo to fortissimo used in the composition).
It was the important words in Billshurv answer.
https://www.digido.com/portfolio-item/level-practices-part-1/
https://www.digido.com/portfolio-item/level-practices-part-2/
* please let me rephrase it as my comment wasn't supposed to be aggressive: do you understand what 'crest factor' is in the context of musical signal?
There is headroom yes( 'unused on top'), but more something in the 6db range rather than 20db ( for 80's pop music). 8db if you listen to something broadcasted ( radio/tv)... and if you listen to Metallica's 'death magnetic' something like 17db (!... listening to pink noise!).
With acoustic music ( and classical even more) there is 0db headroom, the whole dynamic range ( crest factor of 20db) will be used very probably if it is dynamic music ( pianissimo to fortissimo used in the composition).
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Liked so much this statement/observation.With no further investigation, IMO it perfectly provides an answer to your own question/thread title.
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but it's not a good way to do that unless you listen to music with no dynamic contrasts
It doesn’t even matter if there are no dynamic contrasts (ie, Metallica). When you add multiple signals on top of one another - as on more than one sound simultaneously - the required peak voltages add up, and required power goes up as the SQUARE. Even the most compressed digital cell phone RF transmissions have the same “problem”, requiring an amplifier with a high peak to average ratio. About 10 dB is considered the bare minimum, and will result in some distortion. It’s clean enough for most people with most music, and clean enough for a computer on the other end of a digital transmission to be able to correct the bit errors. Want it significantly “cleaner” where you don’t EVER get clipping? Add another 6 to 10 dB. How often does it matter? Depends on your taste in music (Seriously, it does).
It‘s not about “fear” its about what is practical. Realistic drums, organs and piano are just too damn loud. It’s why musicians go deaf - sustained exposure at those levels is dangerous. And will usually elicit a visit from law enforcement unless you spend a million or more on a place far away from neighbors. In that case you can afford the amp and speakers. Paying modest rent in an apartment? There is simply no NEED for average SPLs above 70 dB, maybe 80 if the place is well built. Even in this house, 90 dB in the living room exceeds 60 dB at the street which technically makes it illegal.
Sure, I still get it up to 100 or even 110 in the shop on occasion, but the neighbors have come to expect that it’s short-lived, one or two tracks at a time. Usually testing out the latest creation. I grew up doing raves in the 80’s, and 40 years later I can’t take a steady diet of it anymore. The music was way better back then anyway.
If you take a 4 Watt amp and a very effective speaker with 1% acoustic output, ignoring that small speaker are not effective, you get .04 Watt that “rock” the room..
Now compare this to the energy a bar jazz percussion or piano produces, playing at very moderate level. You will not get far...
Life music or recorded life, with low compression, has very high peaks, even while it seems not very loud. You even feel vibrations.
If you are old enough and your religion allows, maybe visit a bar with life background music.
You may only need a few milliwatt on average for highly compressed background music, but you don't need to discuss quality amps in such cases.
Distortion is a matter of the order. 1% second order may even add warmth or sparkle, while 1% third will sure annoy you.
Using your mini amp you soon run into psycho acoustic territory, just like the nerd's raving about the great sound and impressive bass of an Amazon speaker.
Question:"Alexa, play some high quality music" answer: "Sorry man, can't do, get a pair of decent quality speakers and a real amp"
As I said, with “such small amps are all you need” we run into ideological territory. You want to prove something the rest of the world knows to be wrong.
Keep on trolling!
Now compare this to the energy a bar jazz percussion or piano produces, playing at very moderate level. You will not get far...
Life music or recorded life, with low compression, has very high peaks, even while it seems not very loud. You even feel vibrations.
If you are old enough and your religion allows, maybe visit a bar with life background music.
You may only need a few milliwatt on average for highly compressed background music, but you don't need to discuss quality amps in such cases.
Distortion is a matter of the order. 1% second order may even add warmth or sparkle, while 1% third will sure annoy you.
Using your mini amp you soon run into psycho acoustic territory, just like the nerd's raving about the great sound and impressive bass of an Amazon speaker.
Question:"Alexa, play some high quality music" answer: "Sorry man, can't do, get a pair of decent quality speakers and a real amp"
As I said, with “such small amps are all you need” we run into ideological territory. You want to prove something the rest of the world knows to be wrong.
Keep on trolling!
Attachments
real life is rarely captured on a recording. Studio monitors need huge amplifiers and massive headroom as they get uncompressed feeds from animals. Domestically we don't usually want 120dB peaks so we have somewhat more sanitised output. Sometimes a record slips through though like as reported here https://www.cordellaudio.com/he2007/show_report.shtml but 2W average 250W peaks is very rare.
Why?
Maybe I should clarify: you've taken the reasonable step of choosing the loudest part of a loud song, and set the test system as loud as you want it to go. You could choose a quiet passage in Carmina Burana and roughly guesstimate that the loud part needs to be another 40dB louder. But if you've already chosen the loud part to test with, then there's no need for additional guesswork. You already know what the peaks are because that's about the only thing you will see on the scope precisely because of its linear scale.
An additional check could be to use a *.wav editor and look at the headroom on a CD track to make sure.
^ this is not how a system is calibrated.
If you read the article i linked you'll see we can't rely on the loudness of track to define the crest factor, and how calibrating is done properly ( and mastering being the last step before printing media, where dynamic range is adaptation to the media is done, then it is irrelevant as it's not been even done...) .
Never been that way and it'll never be.
That said if you are happy with low power amp i don't see any issue about it. Preferences are impossible to argue in my view.
But technical issues are hard cold facts which doesn't support arguing neither.
If you read the article i linked you'll see we can't rely on the loudness of track to define the crest factor, and how calibrating is done properly ( and mastering being the last step before printing media, where dynamic range is adaptation to the media is done, then it is irrelevant as it's not been even done...) .
Never been that way and it'll never be.
That said if you are happy with low power amp i don't see any issue about it. Preferences are impossible to argue in my view.
But technical issues are hard cold facts which doesn't support arguing neither.
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A few mentions of Metallica; wasn't "Master of puppets" heavily "squished" to get it onto one record?
I had a good listening session last night, and I thoroughly enjoyed all the music (CDs); I have to say, it seems to be the reproduction of timbre and tone that appeals with these amps.
I am listening in a small room, close to the speakers, and I have been carful with my hearing over the years (I often wear ear defenders whilst using a hammer); I'm not saying that 3 watts is a universal panacea, it's just it seems that these amps seem to sound better than they should.
I had a good listening session last night, and I thoroughly enjoyed all the music (CDs); I have to say, it seems to be the reproduction of timbre and tone that appeals with these amps.
I am listening in a small room, close to the speakers, and I have been carful with my hearing over the years (I often wear ear defenders whilst using a hammer); I'm not saying that 3 watts is a universal panacea, it's just it seems that these amps seem to sound better than they should.
'Master of puppets' seen no bass. Because mainly of Lars Ulrich's ego. For the next album Jason Newsteed imposed himself and... bang multi million dollars hit. And it opened the way to Sepultura's 'Roots', Korn 'Korn' and all what metal seen since ( A tuning is now 'normal' on some subgenres).
'Death Magnetic' hit a wall about loudness war: first time an album was so squashed it saturated. Mastering Engineer had to explain he worked under orders of the band...
Check the initial release... 2008.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=metallica&album=death+magnetic
Frightening. Happily we are graced with a 11db dynamic range version... almost like a broadcast signal standard... such qualitative!
'Death Magnetic' hit a wall about loudness war: first time an album was so squashed it saturated. Mastering Engineer had to explain he worked under orders of the band...
Check the initial release... 2008.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=metallica&album=death+magnetic
Frightening. Happily we are graced with a 11db dynamic range version... almost like a broadcast signal standard... such qualitative!
You cannot differentiate between soft clipping and actual signal. Peaks generally soft clip ending in commpression. Capacitors hold the signal long enough to color the signal. All musics are compressed . Artists try there whole life to sound compressed. Powerfull amps will blast your head off with peaks of 250watt to average 1 watt. Thats not nice feeling.
Isn't there an un-squished version of Death magnetic on some computer game ?'Master of puppets' seen no bass. Because mainly of Lars Ulrich's ego. For the next album Jason Newsteed imposed himself and... bang multi million dollars hit. And it opened the way to Sepultura's 'Roots', Korn 'Korn' and all what metal seen since ( A tuning is now 'normal' on some subgenres).
'Death Magnetic' hit a wall about loudness war: first time an album was so squashed it saturated. Mastering Engineer had to explain he worked under orders of the band...
Check the initial release... 2008.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=metallica&album=death+magnetic
Frightening. Happily we are graced with a 11db dynamic range version... almost like a broadcast signal standard... such qualitative!
An oscilloscope ( alone) is irrelevant in the context of a sound system calibration: it is done using pinknoise and spl meter after a study of the signal path ( gain staging).
The only relevant measurement is from Spl. Cause room comes into play. And because of psychoacoustic ( smaller room have more Early Reflections than bigger room and it seems our brain 'protect' himself by asking lower SPL in that case).
The only relevant measurement is from Spl. Cause room comes into play. And because of psychoacoustic ( smaller room have more Early Reflections than bigger room and it seems our brain 'protect' himself by asking lower SPL in that case).
They released the 11db dynamic range remaster after people complained about sound quality... probably this one you heard.
Say if you have an hour of music on CD, and a peak that lasts a fraction of a second, is it better to be able to reproduce the peak, at the expense of compromising the rest of the hours music? I want dynamic range, it's what gives music it's life, but how much is necessary, and how much can speakers reproduce, are amps the limitation in reproducing a drum-strike, or the speaker?
If you follow pure technical approach then yes you need what can be seen as insane amount of power.
If you don't care and accept a bit of distortion on transients then....
People are affraid to say they like sound of distortion. I don't get why. I have a large smile when i stomp on my HM2 playing bass!
I'm teasing but i'm serious, if distortion wasn't enjoyable then guitar would be much less fun...
Cracked Case, the situation you depict is why there is now a condition of time in rules for SPL ( for public audience): 102db peaks dbc for 15mn is now the standard in my country. Before it was 105dbspl dbc. It makes a big difference depending on music genre.
Cinema have issues about that: they are 3db louder ( if THX)...
If you don't care and accept a bit of distortion on transients then....
People are affraid to say they like sound of distortion. I don't get why. I have a large smile when i stomp on my HM2 playing bass!
I'm teasing but i'm serious, if distortion wasn't enjoyable then guitar would be much less fun...
Cracked Case, the situation you depict is why there is now a condition of time in rules for SPL ( for public audience): 102db peaks dbc for 15mn is now the standard in my country. Before it was 105dbspl dbc. It makes a big difference depending on music genre.
Cinema have issues about that: they are 3db louder ( if THX)...
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How much is nescessary? In my view: as much as there is on the highest dynamic recording you have in your collection.
How much a loudspeaker can produce? A DSL Jericho 6 could output 148dbspl 1m continous, 154dbspl peak. It's loud.
If amps are sized accordingly why would an amp be a limiting factor?
Edit: in my view the limit is not in the loudspeakers and amp but in background noise of the place you are in. the quietness of a decoupled studio acoustic make ones understand the low signal/noise ratio is what limit things in domestic rooms.
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