The $15k+ amps ...take their covers off, what do you find inside?
Bill of materials price is below 1k...
The Sansui, Sony, and other Japanese sets finished off Marantz and others, simply because they were better made, and a fraction of the price.
Bang and Olufsen used STK circuits with cheap Samhwa capacitors, and sold the equipment for 10 times what Kenwood and Pioneer charged, for equipment with the same innards.
The Japanese used Elna and other top quality capacitors.
Bang and Olufsen are out of the audio business, now they are into machining aluminum as a business, because all their equipment was mediocre circuits in fancy metal housings.
The price difference in putting good capacitors would have been extra about $50 in a set selling for $2500+, affordable, not a deal breaker, and at least in keeping with their reputation.
And that reputation partly came from articles in audio magazines, which tells you a lot about the ethics and quality of magazine writers....
You want to get ripped off, your money, your choice.
Also, see how long have those fancy names been in business, and how many units they sell annually.
Mercedes sells, but here fancy Toyota cars sell more than Mercedes.
Audi and BMW....no comment.
I have no ties to any names above.
Bill of materials price is below 1k...
The Sansui, Sony, and other Japanese sets finished off Marantz and others, simply because they were better made, and a fraction of the price.
Bang and Olufsen used STK circuits with cheap Samhwa capacitors, and sold the equipment for 10 times what Kenwood and Pioneer charged, for equipment with the same innards.
The Japanese used Elna and other top quality capacitors.
Bang and Olufsen are out of the audio business, now they are into machining aluminum as a business, because all their equipment was mediocre circuits in fancy metal housings.
The price difference in putting good capacitors would have been extra about $50 in a set selling for $2500+, affordable, not a deal breaker, and at least in keeping with their reputation.
And that reputation partly came from articles in audio magazines, which tells you a lot about the ethics and quality of magazine writers....
You want to get ripped off, your money, your choice.
Also, see how long have those fancy names been in business, and how many units they sell annually.
Mercedes sells, but here fancy Toyota cars sell more than Mercedes.
Audi and BMW....no comment.
I have no ties to any names above.
NareshBrd, some people are fixated on that high-end stuff, and insist on forcing their views till the sun comes up.
It gets boring to hear, obviously.
They'd laugh at my systems of course, but that's just a result of their ingrained brainwashed lives.
I've had a few of my "audiophile" friends stop by, who cherish, adore, and covet the 'big names' in audio, mainly because of what they've heard, and now believe that it's 'the best way to go'.
And in those casual instances at my home, upon hearing my stuff, they're visably amazed and confused.
One guy said: I spent ALL that money?.... and for what?
Makes me laugh.
It gets boring to hear, obviously.
They'd laugh at my systems of course, but that's just a result of their ingrained brainwashed lives.
I've had a few of my "audiophile" friends stop by, who cherish, adore, and covet the 'big names' in audio, mainly because of what they've heard, and now believe that it's 'the best way to go'.
And in those casual instances at my home, upon hearing my stuff, they're visably amazed and confused.
One guy said: I spent ALL that money?.... and for what?
Makes me laugh.
like i said, opinions vary, but im not forcing any views on anyone, i have owned some pretty nice vintage marantz, fisher and McIntosh, all where great to a point, but at the end of the day they do not compare, i speak from experience and ownership, i wonder how many claiming "highend" is overpriced and overrated can say the same
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I seriously wonder why Audio, at least here, seems to be considered the only branch of technology not to take advantage of technological progress.
Vintage can be loved for various very noble reasons, but it cannot be compared to anything current, in no technological sector and almost all of the reasons to love Vintage use the heart, because the brain would tell you that something, anything, with an age of 20, 30, or 40 cannot in any way compete with a current object to the-state-of-the-art.
Just as an example, how about the medium/long-term electrical (and mechanical) reliability?
How about components that he worked for 40 years, would you use them to make a plane fly?
I really do not think so.
And the same thing goes for any piece of audio equipment, if you use your brain.
If, on the other hand, you use your heart everything changes, and the speech you do can easily be accepted, but you must always make that premise before. IMO
Therefore in my opinion some of those speeches above are without any logical sense if your brain is used, but at the same time they have an instimablie value if your heart is used.
You have to be very careful though, because using your heart does not mean that everything you don't love automatically becomes garbage.
Vintage can be loved for various very noble reasons, but it cannot be compared to anything current, in no technological sector and almost all of the reasons to love Vintage use the heart, because the brain would tell you that something, anything, with an age of 20, 30, or 40 cannot in any way compete with a current object to the-state-of-the-art.
Just as an example, how about the medium/long-term electrical (and mechanical) reliability?
How about components that he worked for 40 years, would you use them to make a plane fly?
I really do not think so.
And the same thing goes for any piece of audio equipment, if you use your brain.
If, on the other hand, you use your heart everything changes, and the speech you do can easily be accepted, but you must always make that premise before. IMO
Therefore in my opinion some of those speeches above are without any logical sense if your brain is used, but at the same time they have an instimablie value if your heart is used.
You have to be very careful though, because using your heart does not mean that everything you don't love automatically becomes garbage.
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The thing about Burmester is that they are just as concerned with the aesthetic appeal as with the sound of their components. Building something that can be mass produced and not only sounds good but looks the part is not trivial. You're not going to sell thousands of these and you still need all the tooling, R&D, marketing, product support and the rest. I can see how they arrive at the prices they charge. They've been around for a very long time, there are at least enough people who like what they do to keep them going.
People are amazed at my system as well. My neighbor (who moved to California) was downright mad after hearing my system. He spent thousands on all Bose equipment. I told him he should have given me the money and let me build something.
I brought my preamp to my other neighbor's house and hooked it into his system. He didn't want to let me bring it home. You wouldn't think so, but his preamp severely veils the sound compared to mine. I don't know why them make them so bad when it's just as easy to make them excellent. Must be something about marketing. BUT...
The market for quality sound reinforcement is dead. There is virtually no market. People want small, cheap, disposable... and the market delivers.
When us geezers die, nobody will even know what the words hi fi means.
What is the state of the art today? Ironically quality sound reinforcement doesn't seem to be part of the definition any more.
Marantz was and still is considered "high end' in the consumer market. But look at the history of Marantz up until today.
- 1952 Saul Marantz sells his first audio product, the "Consolette" pre-amp
- 1964 Marantz acquired by Superscope Inc.
- 1966 Beginning with the Model 25, and then 22 and 28, Marantz starts manufacturing its products in Japan through a partnership with Standard Radio Corp.
- 1974 A manufacturing plant is opened on the Péronnes-lez-Binche site, Walloon Region, Bel
- Marantz Europe (1974~1985)
- 1975 Standard Radio Corp. changes its name to Marantz Japan Inc.
- 1980 Superscope sells the Marantz brand, dealer network, and all overseas assets (except U.S. and Canada) to Philips Electronics
- 1983 Marantz's audio enhancement technology (Marantz Enhanced Digital Stereo) is introduced
- 1992 Philips acquires U.S. and Canada trademarks and dealer network
- 1997 Saul Marantz dies aged 85
- 2001 Marantz Japan Inc. acquires the brand and all overseas sales subsidiaries
- 2002 Marantz Japan and Denon merge to form D&M Holdings, to later be joined by other higher-end audio equipment brands such as Boston Acoustics
- 2008 Philips sells its remaining stake in D&M Holdings, ending a 28-year relationship between Philips and Marantz
- 2014 Marantz Professional acquired by inMusic Brands
- 2017 Sound United LLC acquires D+M Holding
- 2019 Ken Ishiwata dies aged 72
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marantz
Looks like a corporate circle jerk to me. All industries are the same now. Automotive industry is a bunch of low quality, super high priced crapola, and the history of most companies is a corporate Pacman story. It's the times we live in.
My equipment uses what is basically older designs. The parts are new and of way higher quality than what was ever used in any equipment at any price. Nobody cares but that's what works.
My uncle had a kenwood model 600 with Burhoe acoustics ‘blues’ (I still have those very speakers, and wish I had the amp) that amp had such a effortless grip on the music that was so amazing to me, i’d heard his system through several sets of speakers over the years and it was always the same amazing sound……until he “upgraded” to another supposedly newer/better amp around 2010…….he thoroughly regrets that move.
Anyways I’ve listened to alot of high end stuff over the years in various situations and I have yet to come across the purity of sound that kenwood put forth.
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/kenwood/model-600.shtml
Anyways I’ve listened to alot of high end stuff over the years in various situations and I have yet to come across the purity of sound that kenwood put forth.
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/kenwood/model-600.shtml
I'm 36 and I must disagree. We're not many in my age group, but we're still here. The fact that the commercial sector is gone makes it all the more important to keep DIY strong and inclusive of people of all ages. Pass the torch, keep the flame alive.
I've seen so many comments here along the lines of "young people these days are all idiots and just don't get it". Sad, really. Those of us who do get it are few and far between, but there's no need to paint all millenials or gen Z with the same brush.
You can still repair the older equipment, even upgrade it with modern parts. But the market simply doesn't support this kind of activity.
And that's another thing about new equipment. Sometimes it's nigh on impossible to repair. Back in the day there was an electronics repair shop in every neighborhood. People even had their VCRs serviced and repaired. But there's no point in repairing newer equipment usually. It's so crappy and way cheaper to replace than it is to repair it. Planned obsolescence perfected.
And that's another thing about new equipment. Sometimes it's nigh on impossible to repair. Back in the day there was an electronics repair shop in every neighborhood. People even had their VCRs serviced and repaired. But there's no point in repairing newer equipment usually. It's so crappy and way cheaper to replace than it is to repair it. Planned obsolescence perfected.
Things get more complicated, and not always for good reason. The evolution of the modern Subaru engine is a good example.
I've had a couple older Legacys with the EJ25 engine. These engines required maintenance on a schedule, including changing the timing belt every 95,000-105,000 miles. I got to the point I could change them out in 2-3 hours with zero fumbling around.
But customers complained about having to have their timing belts changed, so Subaru introduced a new engine with a steel timing chain. Now remember these are boxer engines with 4 camshafts. The timing chain assembly is horrendously complicated, and the chain is prone to failure after about 100,000 miles anyway. Although the chain was steel, the guides and tensioners (it has at least four tensioners what a weak link!) uses plastic parts that have to be precision installed onto the engine. In other words Bubba gonna break em. And with so many plastic parts in the timing chain assembly, the chance of sudden and catastrophic failure was multiplied.
I watched the tutorial on how to change the chain and all I could say is "why"? I own six torque wrenches but I would have to buy a seventh one to perform this procedure. There are bolts that are torqued to very tiny torques like 12 in-lbs. So silly! Who do they think is going to be servicing these in the field?
The design is destined for failure. I would only trust a factory assembled Subaru engine now. I would never attempt to service this by myself, even though I thoroughly understand the design.
I've had a couple older Legacys with the EJ25 engine. These engines required maintenance on a schedule, including changing the timing belt every 95,000-105,000 miles. I got to the point I could change them out in 2-3 hours with zero fumbling around.
But customers complained about having to have their timing belts changed, so Subaru introduced a new engine with a steel timing chain. Now remember these are boxer engines with 4 camshafts. The timing chain assembly is horrendously complicated, and the chain is prone to failure after about 100,000 miles anyway. Although the chain was steel, the guides and tensioners (it has at least four tensioners what a weak link!) uses plastic parts that have to be precision installed onto the engine. In other words Bubba gonna break em. And with so many plastic parts in the timing chain assembly, the chance of sudden and catastrophic failure was multiplied.
I watched the tutorial on how to change the chain and all I could say is "why"? I own six torque wrenches but I would have to buy a seventh one to perform this procedure. There are bolts that are torqued to very tiny torques like 12 in-lbs. So silly! Who do they think is going to be servicing these in the field?
The design is destined for failure. I would only trust a factory assembled Subaru engine now. I would never attempt to service this by myself, even though I thoroughly understand the design.
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From 1991 until we closed the shop in 2016, I was running one of those Repair Shops.
People came from all over to have their equipment worked on.
I even had people from Florida, Texas, Delaware, Virginia, NY, Ohio, etc ship or drag their stuff to me.
Being one of the last 'old school' shops, and being flexible and diverse in our repair abilities, I was constantly busy, 6 days a week.
10's of thousands of satisfied customers, I made sure of that, catering on a personal level to each one.
So that naturally resulted in having a stellar reputation.
It's the way I always was, and believed that the customer deserved the best service that I could deliver.
Sure, at times, the job wasn't easy, but that's part of the course, and the money was good.
However, I saw the 'writing on the wall' rearing its ugly head, far back into the late 1990's - which was the influx of crappy-designed products that barely made it though their warranty period.
Some of those were beyond repair due to lack of service info, parts, and manufacturer tech support.
Those were of the 'throwaway' generation.
What did keep me extremely busy was the vintage range of stuff.
I saw that there was a substantial part of society that wanted to hold onto their equipment, some for it's quality, others for sentimental reasons.
It was a long and rocky ride I will say!
Just the cost of doing business now is exhorbitant. Taxes, fees, and licenses eat up so much capitol, and produce nothing.
I know of well equipped shops behind Chicago two flats that perform competent automotive repairs for about half of what the legit mom and pop shop right around the corner charge. The only thing missing in the back alley shop is a certificate on the wall. Displaying that certificate costs sometimes tens of thousands of dollars a month, what a colossal waste.
There are neighborhoods in Chicago where the only businesses you see are liquor stores and tiny storefront churches. You might think you can't get your car or house repaired in those neighborhoods but you'd be wrong. The reason there's no legit businesses in thise neighborhoods is that with the enormous overhead facing small businesses the market doesn't even come close to supporting them. So, a couple guys work out of a garage or a van and make a decent living.
It amazes me that the political class doesn't see this. Want to help a struggling area improve? Get off your soapbox and cut some red tape.
I know of well equipped shops behind Chicago two flats that perform competent automotive repairs for about half of what the legit mom and pop shop right around the corner charge. The only thing missing in the back alley shop is a certificate on the wall. Displaying that certificate costs sometimes tens of thousands of dollars a month, what a colossal waste.
There are neighborhoods in Chicago where the only businesses you see are liquor stores and tiny storefront churches. You might think you can't get your car or house repaired in those neighborhoods but you'd be wrong. The reason there's no legit businesses in thise neighborhoods is that with the enormous overhead facing small businesses the market doesn't even come close to supporting them. So, a couple guys work out of a garage or a van and make a decent living.
It amazes me that the political class doesn't see this. Want to help a struggling area improve? Get off your soapbox and cut some red tape.
And where I live, the village planners have been implementing a slash and burn policy for at least 15 years. They've condemned and torn down two neighborhoods and put up gleaming new mid-rises. There's million dollar condos within a ten minute walk of my house. And people bought them!
They basically evicted dozens if not hundreds of merchants. Now they're building a massive hotel and a parking lot for something like 3500 cars. I don't want 3500 cars driving less than half a mile from my house!
BUT to get to my point, the profile of merchants in the village has changed. Most of the new retail space is still vacant (it's got to be very expensive) but a few restaurants have opened. We decided to check out one of the Mexican restaurants based on a recommendation. We each got two tacos, drank water, no side dishes. The tacos were small but delicious. The tab (for lunch) was over $50!
I don't know if that's sustainable, but it's a new world and I'm an old geezer. At least the Ace Hardware is still open, and it doesn't cost $15 for one wood screw. Yet.
They basically evicted dozens if not hundreds of merchants. Now they're building a massive hotel and a parking lot for something like 3500 cars. I don't want 3500 cars driving less than half a mile from my house!
BUT to get to my point, the profile of merchants in the village has changed. Most of the new retail space is still vacant (it's got to be very expensive) but a few restaurants have opened. We decided to check out one of the Mexican restaurants based on a recommendation. We each got two tacos, drank water, no side dishes. The tacos were small but delicious. The tab (for lunch) was over $50!
I don't know if that's sustainable, but it's a new world and I'm an old geezer. At least the Ace Hardware is still open, and it doesn't cost $15 for one wood screw. Yet.
Think I might have been 18. Most things went way over my head. Took about 15 years until I had something worthwhile to contribute. Until then I was wise enough to keep quiet and lurk.
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The cost of bar codes for business is also horrendous, if I get my particular bar code, from a private American entity (they have a world monopoly), the annual cost goes above $25,000, I have to pay for initial, annual and per unit used, with an Indian country code.
The local government did have financial support, but still....
And look how many cents the major card payment companies like Visa and MasterCard make per transaction...every time you use the card, there is a transaction fee, sometime the bank bears it.
This is on debit cards as well, even ATM money withdrawals within the same bank as the one where you have an account (sometimes).
I am told the amount is in billions of US Dollars.
No ties to anybody, and a little political.
The local government did have financial support, but still....
And look how many cents the major card payment companies like Visa and MasterCard make per transaction...every time you use the card, there is a transaction fee, sometime the bank bears it.
This is on debit cards as well, even ATM money withdrawals within the same bank as the one where you have an account (sometimes).
I am told the amount is in billions of US Dollars.
No ties to anybody, and a little political.
Oh, there was a homeless guy inside the restaurant going table to table panhandling. He did his homeless thing in the bathroom too.
I'm not mad or indignant, merely amused. I grew up in a gritty working class neighborhood where a couple of working guys could score a few mom and pop restaurant tacos for less than $3 (like $10 today). And no homeless person would ever be tolerated in any way, shape, or form in that neighborhood. If you got off the buss stinking like that you wouldn't make it ten steps.
Now I live in a nouveau upscale area (formerly middle class) and a taco lunch for two is $50 and a homeless person will bug me while we eat.
It's been quite a trip. I don't know what's up any more but I'm still taking the trip.
Isn't there a coralation between current music and the interest of the younger generation in hi-fi ? For many generations, there was music that was relevant to them, but since the 1990s, what decent music has there been (God, that makes me sound like a grumpy old man...) In the local supermarkets, they stopped selling the cheap music systems about 2 years ago, the local electronics store (were I got my Rotel CD player from) now sells washing machines. If there's no modern music worth listening to, why would the young 'uns be interested in hi-fi? Also there's much more to interest them, mainly computer games.
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