Well, he claims differences auditioning power cords at his home, dealers', friends', shows, Youtube and wherenot. This should pretty much cover any condition/system in everyday life, but one - science (properly conducted listening tests and measurements).
Here is the thing: I don't necessarily believe what is implied by your summary of what Rick claims is precisely accurate. I don't necessarily believe Rick never makes a mistake. And I don't necessarily believe that no amplifier that audiophiles like can be affected by power cords. Nor do I believe that AC line noise and or distortion is the same in every location and at every time of day. IOW, don't think its necessarily unreasonable to be at least mildly skeptical of various simplifying assumptions. If we really want to know what's going on it generally takes time and money. With those resources someone could fly out to where Rick is, take a preliminary look around, try to get Rick to be a lot more specific, get him to demonstrate the effect, etc. If this thing is real we need to catch it when it is happening. Then we tease out causal factors until we understand it properly.
All that said, here is what I would suspect given what we know so far: (1) power cords sometimes affect sound, and (2) Rick is using sighted listening so even if sometimes power cords do affect sound, Rick may be detecting some false positives. Maybe a lot of false positives. I don't know. With enough time and money though, I could probably go find out.
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@Markw4 How about you humor us hearing impaired mortals, by uploading say, 2 audio files of before a power cable swap and 2 audio files of after a power cable swap.
Make the files preferably shortish WAV (1-2min) of music, with not many silent parts.
We are not testing speakers so dont use a microphone.
Use this as a guide
https://deltaw.org/mydoc_quickstart.html
It will be educational for one and all dont you think?
I await your humble response.
Kind Regards,
Arthur.
Come on, lets do some testing (however flawed you might think it is)
Make the files preferably shortish WAV (1-2min) of music, with not many silent parts.
We are not testing speakers so dont use a microphone.
Use this as a guide
https://deltaw.org/mydoc_quickstart.html
It will be educational for one and all dont you think?
I await your humble response.
Kind Regards,
Arthur.
Come on, lets do some testing (however flawed you might think it is)
You must be under some misunderstanding. I use normal power cords myself, but with a used Monster HTPS 7000 MkII (a power conditioner designed for Monster by forum members Richard Marsh, and 1audio - aka Demian Martin). That said, I have reasons to believe power cords can sometimes make a difference. Primarily based on proprietary research by others.
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That last sentence describes where I'm coming from. Let's generate lots of data. And data from different perspectives to figure out what's going on. And certainly, do good science.
Arthur's right. Let's see the effects of different cords with and without power conditioners. You can test that.
And it's important to get a more detailed description of at least one of Rick's test environments... his own system. He made a gesture toward that end by telling us one component -- the CD player. I found a picture of it from Luxman if that helps.
As I said let's approach this like the community does other fault questions: ask questions, get photos, require cooperation, make suggestions... not hurl accusations and scorn. Of course all that depends on cooperation. Rick has to want to understand and be "helped". Being coy doesn't help.
Just sayin'.
Don't know about that. I am working on more projects than I have time for already.
Also, unless your system is as good or better than mine, and unless I have a really good ADC, whatever files are produced may be of limited use. Let's suppose though that some files were recorded, a difference program was run on them and a small difference was detected. What would you make of that? Might mean something useful if you were here to listen to the difference on this system. Should I test with the vacuum cleaner on in the other room, and or with food processor and microwave running in the kitchen? How would I know what my neighbor on same the AC power distribution transformer secondary is doing to the AC line? IOW what is realistic set of conditions for a rigorous evaluation? What is an objective way to judge results?
Right now it seems kind of slapdash. Let's get some files, run diffmaker, then argue about whether the results are audible?
I wasn't asking you to make a commitment. Just saying that your setup has... opportunities.
You're absolutely right... this is a nascent idea in a formative stage.
I agree; the noise floor and environment are critical. As are measurement artifacts etc.
But starting is important too. As is an openness to question, rethink and test, test, test...
You're absolutely right... this is a nascent idea in a formative stage.
I agree; the noise floor and environment are critical. As are measurement artifacts etc.
But starting is important too. As is an openness to question, rethink and test, test, test...
I want to say that I cannot tell what key a song is in, and I cannot pick out drum rudiments and tell you what they are, in a song. I do not have this ability, but I greatly enjoy listening to music.
I can hear the difference a aftermarket power cord makes. I am now thinking that most of the people in this thread might not have the ability to hear a power cord, like I do not have the ability to hear a slightly out of tune instrument. And that is Ok, not everyone is the same.
If you listen to this video and do not hear difference for whatever reason (think the worst that the test is rigged to favor one cable) then I can understand how you can feel that power cords do not matter. In the end we have our audio equipment to play music that we can enjoy, it really does not matter what the measurements are as long as we enjoy it, Nelson Pass is showing people how to make harmonic distortion! If some people want to find out why power cords can make a system sound better that’s great, I hope they do, but I feel that today we do not have measurements that can do that, We have to use our ears and brain to tell which is better, then use our emotion to enjoy it thru music.
So here is the video again, you can listen and if you do not hear differences that is OK, but as you can see in the comments many people do hear differences, just like musicians can hear out of pitch instruments that I cannot.
I can hear the difference a aftermarket power cord makes. I am now thinking that most of the people in this thread might not have the ability to hear a power cord, like I do not have the ability to hear a slightly out of tune instrument. And that is Ok, not everyone is the same.
If you listen to this video and do not hear difference for whatever reason (think the worst that the test is rigged to favor one cable) then I can understand how you can feel that power cords do not matter. In the end we have our audio equipment to play music that we can enjoy, it really does not matter what the measurements are as long as we enjoy it, Nelson Pass is showing people how to make harmonic distortion! If some people want to find out why power cords can make a system sound better that’s great, I hope they do, but I feel that today we do not have measurements that can do that, We have to use our ears and brain to tell which is better, then use our emotion to enjoy it thru music.
So here is the video again, you can listen and if you do not hear differences that is OK, but as you can see in the comments many people do hear differences, just like musicians can hear out of pitch instruments that I cannot.
I beg to differ, for an experiment to satisfactorily prove a hypothesis, it must be replicable by others.
I have both MOSFET (F5) and tube mono-blocks, and would run the demonstration XY and YX.
I can have my molecular biologist wife proctor the exam
Markw4 and Rick Miller have a different hypothesis from the rest of us. Anyhow all this is pointless since small differences can always be attributed to different conditions. And if no differences are found the results are still inconclusive as "something like stochastic resonance effects may make an inaudible signal become audible".
Let me tell a short fairy tale.
One proverbial audiophool bought a good quality audio system and, after listening a while and visiting some audio forums, learned that his system can be improved.
One proverbial audiophool bought a good quality audio system and, after listening a while and visiting some audio forums, learned that his system can be improved.
- First, he bought power conditioner and sound was better. After some burn-in, sound was even better.
- Then, he bought a premium power cords. Sound was better. After some burn-in time, it was another notch better.
- Then, he bought premium interconnection cables, Sound was much better and after some burn-in even more.
- Then, he bought premium Quantum Fuses. Oh, what a huge sound upgrade, even more after burn-in.
- Then, he bought Synergystic Loudspeaker cables. Sound was much better.
- Next, he bought Organic Line cable elevators and sound was better.
- Then, he bought cable cooker and improved, for another several notches, all his cables. Sound was much, much better.
- Next, he bought ……. and sound was better.
The punchline is that this chap made all those "upgrades" whilst his BA2018 preamp was -- ostensibly legitimately... I did ask -- in its 50 hour burn in... and all the while improving sound quality.
QED!
For what it's worth some people report that some of these products make things worse. Verschlimmbesserung stuff.
QED!
For what it's worth some people report that some of these products make things worse. Verschlimmbesserung stuff.
This could be an extraordinary opportunity to get some real answers as you have both required knowledge and equipment. There is no chance that any premium cords and cables peddler would volunteer to give their product in hands of such person. They know very well what would be the result.
May I propose that it is first determined if any cord difference could reflect measurably on amplifier output. One mono block could be connected with standard cord and another with 10 -20 m long extension cord. If that results in any relevant measurable difference, then it is reasonable to check with premium power cord.
Signal source should be one with floating ground or no connection to safety power earth. That way, only effect of power cord on PS and amplifier will be measured, not effect of signal partially travelling through power earth ground wires connecting signal source and amplifiers. The latter can be a separate test for premium power cords.
Rick, Before I spend time on that, are the power amps identified in the video? If so, are you familiar with them and their sensitivity to power cords? How about Purifi Class-D mono blocks, are they as sensitive to power cords as the amps in the video? What was the power source used in the video, local power at some lab, some hotel event room, somewhere else? Were they plugged directly into wall socket, a power strip, something else? Were there fluorescent lights on in the room? I need as much detailed information as possible and want to know if the video is going to give that. Otherwise I will have to assume the amps were cherrypicked for power cord sensitivity and the power cords demonstrated were cherrypicked to be a different as possible, all in all, so as to make an impressive presentation. Do you know if that's what happened? Who picked the amps? Who picked the power cords? How was the video recorded? What mic was used? Thanks in advance for providing detailed information about the test conditions!
BTW, I don't doubt that power cords can affect sound at least sometimes, because I have confirmation from other people who would know. But if we are going to understand what is going on we need more information, that's all. And we need to be able to separate out marketing activities from science activities.
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Nope! - one would be quick to argue that monoblocks are compared...the two might be the same, yet they are not identical. Just one.
Mark, I wish I could give you all the answers you want, but I do not know them all. I know it took place in Jay's home, past video's could describe his system for the test. The main thing is did you and others hear a difference? That was the point of posting the link to the video. I fee that if you look at other video's he has made you will get answers to your questions.Rick, Before I spend time on that, are the power amps identified in the video? If so, are you familiar with them and their sensitivity to power cords? How about Purifi Class-D mono blocks, are they as sensitive to power cords as the amps in the video? What was the power source used in the video, local power at some lab, some hotel event room, somewhere else? Were they plugged directly into wall socket, a power strip, something else? Were there fluorescent lights on in the room? I need as much detailed information as possible and want to know if the video is going to give that. Otherwise I will have to assume the amps were cherrypicked for power cord sensitivity and the power cords demonstrated were cherrypicked to be a different as possible, all in all, so as to make an impressive presentation. Do you know if that's what happened? Who picked the amps? Who picked the power cords? How was the video recorded? What mic was used? Thanks in advance for providing detailed information about the test conditions!
BTW, I don't doubt that power cords can affect sound at least sometimes, because I have confirmation from other people who would know. But if are going to understand what is going on we need more information, that's all. And we need to be able to separate out marketing activities from science activities.
Yes, it was quite obvious using my built-in laptop sound card and some $20 Amazon headphones. Neither one of the versions sounded right. Now we need details. And I would like a copy of the tracks so I can know what they are really supposed to sound like.
Cold hard facts... not feelings. Trust isn't a feature in all this... yet.
Claimants need to be much more forthcoming and open to evaluation and to participation in discussion.
The naysayers too.
(Just watching how polarization in the American Congress is playing out in their pathological dysfunction... )
Claimants need to be much more forthcoming and open to evaluation and to participation in discussion.
The naysayers too.
(Just watching how polarization in the American Congress is playing out in their pathological dysfunction... )
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