I have a Reloop RMX 60 Digital DJ mixer with balanced XLR master outputs and when I connect it to the Soundcraft EPM6 Stereo 1 or Stereo 2 channel strips, the signal level is already at the nominal level (0 dB mark on the level meters), although the channel strips input gain is set at minimum -10 dB (all the way to the left) and the channel fader is set to 0 dB.
The Soundcraft EPM6 technical specifications states that the Stereo 1 and Stereo 2 inputs are balanced, with an input impedance of over 36 kilohms and an input gain range from -10 dB to +20 dB.
The Reloop RMX 60 balanced XLR master outputs are connected to the EPM6 stereo input with Cordial CFM FV XLR female to TRS cables.
The RMX 60 mixer balanced master output impedance is 600 ohms.
Why the audio signal is so loud when I use the balanced connection?
If I connect the RMX 60 unbalanced master outputs to the EPM6 stereo inputs with RCA to TS cables, the gain control on the EPM6 offers more control over the input signal.
The Soundcraft EPM6 technical specifications states that the Stereo 1 and Stereo 2 inputs are balanced, with an input impedance of over 36 kilohms and an input gain range from -10 dB to +20 dB.
The Reloop RMX 60 balanced XLR master outputs are connected to the EPM6 stereo input with Cordial CFM FV XLR female to TRS cables.
The RMX 60 mixer balanced master output impedance is 600 ohms.
Why the audio signal is so loud when I use the balanced connection?
If I connect the RMX 60 unbalanced master outputs to the EPM6 stereo inputs with RCA to TS cables, the gain control on the EPM6 offers more control over the input signal.
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According to page 10 of https://www.reloop.com/media/catalog/product/pdf/2/3/2/232553_Reloop_IM.pdf the nominal level of the RMX 60 balanced output is only 1 V RMS, slightly less than the usual +4 dBu. Are the balanced inputs of the other mixer line inputs or microphone inputs?
As I mentioned in the starting post, the Soundcraft EPM6 Stereo 1 and Stereo 2 inputs are line level inputs (balanced TRS jacks).
Furthermore, if I connect the Denon MCX 8000 balanced XLR master outputs to the same Stereo 1 or Stereo 2 inputs on the EPM 6 mixer, the gain control works as it's supposed to, property attenuating the input level.
Furthermore, if I connect the Denon MCX 8000 balanced XLR master outputs to the same Stereo 1 or Stereo 2 inputs on the EPM 6 mixer, the gain control works as it's supposed to, property attenuating the input level.
That's weird, as the RMX 60 balanced output level is supposed to be a bit on the low side. Have you got an oscilloscope or something else with which you can measure the levels?
If you are looking for a solution rather than a root cause, you could build or buy voltage dividers to attenuate the signal by 10 dB or so.
If you are looking for a solution rather than a root cause, you could build or buy voltage dividers to attenuate the signal by 10 dB or so.
Other DJ mixers I know have significantly lower output impedance on the balanced master outputs, between 100 ohms and 400 ohms.
I wonder if the RMX 60 balanced output impedance of 600 ohms is an issue.
I wonder if the RMX 60 balanced output impedance of 600 ohms is an issue.
The cordial CFM MV XLR female to TRS male jack is 6 meters long and its specifications state a capacitance if 95 pF/m.
With 600 ohm and 36 kohm, that will result in first-order treble roll-off with a corner frequency of 473121 Hz. Even a bat wouldn't hear that, and it certainly doesn't cause an increased audio level.
Are you seeing the 0db level on the EMP6 meters when you hit the PFL button on the stereo channel?
If so that's were you want to be at.
What do you get is you connect to the line inputs on the mic channels?
If so that's were you want to be at.
What do you get is you connect to the line inputs on the mic channels?
If I use the RMX 60 balanced XLR master or TRS boot outputs, I get the same result on the EPM6 TRS line inputs, no matter if I use the mono TRS line inputs on the channels 1 to 6 or the Stereo 1 or Stereo 2 dedicated TRS inputs: the input level is already hitting 0 dB mark on the EPM6 level meters, in PFL mode, with the gains turn down fully to the left at -10 dB or the minimum position on the mono input channels.
If, on the other hand, I connect other equipment with balanced master outputs, but with an output impedance lower that 600 ohms, like the Topping E50 DAC, with 100 ohms output impedance on the balanced TRS outputs, the levels are lower and can be properly adjusted with the gain knobs on the EPM6.
Of one thing I am certain: it is not normal for the input levels to be that high (already hitting 0 dB) with the gains turned down fully.
If, on the other hand, I connect other equipment with balanced master outputs, but with an output impedance lower that 600 ohms, like the Topping E50 DAC, with 100 ohms output impedance on the balanced TRS outputs, the levels are lower and can be properly adjusted with the gain knobs on the EPM6.
Of one thing I am certain: it is not normal for the input levels to be that high (already hitting 0 dB) with the gains turned down fully.
For the life of me, I can't understand how so called reputable mixer manufacturers dear to put on the market mixers with so little control over the input signal, with gain ranges starting from -10 dB, in the case of Soundcraft, or even directly from unity 0 dB, in the case of Mackie!
Is it so hard to understand the importance of a clean an controlled signal at the input stage?
Every single input stage gain control should have a range starting at minus infinity and a clearly marked unity gain position.
What happens if one wants to connect the output of an analog equipment able to put out 5 or even 10 volts rms of signal?
It seems that day by day mixer manufacturers seem to "forget" how to build good and usefull equipment.
Is it so hard to understand the importance of a clean an controlled signal at the input stage?
Every single input stage gain control should have a range starting at minus infinity and a clearly marked unity gain position.
What happens if one wants to connect the output of an analog equipment able to put out 5 or even 10 volts rms of signal?
It seems that day by day mixer manufacturers seem to "forget" how to build good and usefull equipment.
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Yes totally agree, the range of that input trim does seem rather limited but I have also seen desks where the input trim control doesn't affect the line input at all. Like WTF... what kind of designer thought that is a good idea?
Whenever possible I use the unbalanced master outputs when connecting a DJ mixer/controller to a PA mixer because in more cases than not the balanced output is too hot for a line input. Somewhere DJs get the idea that balanced outputs sound better, I know this because I have to explain to them all that it isn't, the unbalanced outputs are the exact same signal just tapped before it goes to the balanced driver circuit that by design boosts the signal level... which isn't needed for a short connection to another mixer.
Whenever possible I use the unbalanced master outputs when connecting a DJ mixer/controller to a PA mixer because in more cases than not the balanced output is too hot for a line input. Somewhere DJs get the idea that balanced outputs sound better, I know this because I have to explain to them all that it isn't, the unbalanced outputs are the exact same signal just tapped before it goes to the balanced driver circuit that by design boosts the signal level... which isn't needed for a short connection to another mixer.
The unbalanced connection between RMX 60 and the EPM 6 works ok, but I also wanted to take advantage of the balanced connection when I have to send the signal to distances over 3 metres.
I also use an Allen Heath Zed 10 mixer for the sound distribution and the audio quality is a lot better, not to mention the fact that Allen Heath put to good use the gain control with full range attenuation between minus infinity and +15 dB.
I also use an Allen Heath Zed 10 mixer for the sound distribution and the audio quality is a lot better, not to mention the fact that Allen Heath put to good use the gain control with full range attenuation between minus infinity and +15 dB.
According to page 10 of the manual, https://www.reloop.com/media/catalog/product/pdf/2/3/2/232553_Reloop_IM.pdf , these are the nominal levels:
Master: 0 dBV +/- 2 dB
Balanced: 0 dBV +/- 2 dB
Booth: 0 dBV +/- 2 dB
Rec: -10 dBV +/- 2 dB
Phones: -3 dBV +/- 2 dB
It could very well be that the manual is wrong (which is why I asked about measuring equipment to check the levels), but if it isn't, then the unbalanced and balanced line levels are the same: rather high for an unbalanced output, a bit low for a balanced output.
Master: 0 dBV +/- 2 dB
Balanced: 0 dBV +/- 2 dB
Booth: 0 dBV +/- 2 dB
Rec: -10 dBV +/- 2 dB
Phones: -3 dBV +/- 2 dB
It could very well be that the manual is wrong (which is why I asked about measuring equipment to check the levels), but if it isn't, then the unbalanced and balanced line levels are the same: rather high for an unbalanced output, a bit low for a balanced output.
It is not unusual for an unbalanced output to put out over 1 V RMS output level.
My Topping E50 DAC unbalanced output is 2 V RMS and the balanced output is 4 V RMS.
What matters here is the ability of the pa mixer to have control over the input level, balanced or unbalanced, whatever it may be. This means that a gain control able to attenuate the input level to minus infinity is required.
I don't have to be forced to use the mute channel functionality on the EPM6 to prevent unwanted noise to leak into other channels.
In my case, something is a miss between the RMX 60 balanced output and the EPM 6 balanced input.
My Topping E50 DAC unbalanced output is 2 V RMS and the balanced output is 4 V RMS.
What matters here is the ability of the pa mixer to have control over the input level, balanced or unbalanced, whatever it may be. This means that a gain control able to attenuate the input level to minus infinity is required.
I don't have to be forced to use the mute channel functionality on the EPM6 to prevent unwanted noise to leak into other channels.
In my case, something is a miss between the RMX 60 balanced output and the EPM 6 balanced input.
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DACs usually have 2 V or 4 V full-scale level, not nominal level. Mixing desks usually have some 20 dB of headroom, so 1 V nominal is usually about 10 V maximal.
To be precise, the manual actually doesn't explicitly state that 0 dBV is the nominal level, that was just my interpretation of it. Then again, assuming a decent headroom, if 0 dBV were the maximum level, then the nominal level would be unusually low.
To be precise, the manual actually doesn't explicitly state that 0 dBV is the nominal level, that was just my interpretation of it. Then again, assuming a decent headroom, if 0 dBV were the maximum level, then the nominal level would be unusually low.
The rule is clear: master output level is supposed to hit the 0 dB mark, sometimes with some peaks hitting +3 or +6 dB, on the meter, regardless on which mixer one decide to send the final output to the pa reinforcement systems.
Furthermore, if RMX 60 mixer would use the digital scale for output level, there is no point on fitting the output levels meters with + 10 dB marks, because in digital domain there is nothing above 0 dB FS, except clipping.
When a mixer manufacturer state the output level of a mixer master output it has to state the mandatory nominal output level (0 dB on the meters) and the available headroom for peaks If the final processing is done in analog domain.
On the RMX 60 mixer the nominal output of master outputs is 0 dBV (+2 dBU).
Furthermore, if RMX 60 mixer would use the digital scale for output level, there is no point on fitting the output levels meters with + 10 dB marks, because in digital domain there is nothing above 0 dB FS, except clipping.
When a mixer manufacturer state the output level of a mixer master output it has to state the mandatory nominal output level (0 dB on the meters) and the available headroom for peaks If the final processing is done in analog domain.
On the RMX 60 mixer the nominal output of master outputs is 0 dBV (+2 dBU).
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According to page 50 of its manual ( https://www.manualslib.com/manual/2665029/Denon-Dn-Mcx8000.html?page=50#manual ), the MCX 8000 has these output levels:
Balanced master outputs: 4 dBu (unity), 24 dBu (maximum)
Unbalanced master outputs: 0 dBu (unity), 20 dBu (maximum)
Balanced booth outputs: 4 dBu (unity), 24 dBu (maximum)
This is the usual 4 dBu nominal with 20 dB of headroom. As 0 dBV corresponds to about 2.21849 dBu, the RMX 60's balanced output should be slightly softer than the MCX 8000's. Either the values in the RMX 60's manual are complete nonsense, or there is something wrong with its balanced outputs.
Do you have the exact same issue with left and with right? If so, a balanced output hardware problem is quite unlikely.
The output high output level when connecting the RMX 60 is the sane, no matter if I connect through balanced XLR master output or the balanced TRS boot output to the stereo 1 or stereo 2 on the EPM6 inputs.
If, however, I contact the RMX 60 balanced output directly to the Behringer FBQ 6200 HD and Behringer CX 3200 crossover, the levels are normal.
At this point I suspect there is something weird with the EPM6 inputs
If, however, I contact the RMX 60 balanced output directly to the Behringer FBQ 6200 HD and Behringer CX 3200 crossover, the levels are normal.
At this point I suspect there is something weird with the EPM6 inputs
Actually it's all very contradictory:
RMX 60 balanced out to crossovers works normally -> RMX 60 balanced outputs must be OK
MCX 8000 balanced output to EPM 6 balanced input works fine -> EPM 6 balanced inputs must be OK
The cables in between are unlikely to cause a level increase -> cables also OK?
Apart from the level setting issues, did the signal from the RMX 60's balanced outputs sound OK when you listened to it via the EPM 6?
RMX 60 balanced out to crossovers works normally -> RMX 60 balanced outputs must be OK
MCX 8000 balanced output to EPM 6 balanced input works fine -> EPM 6 balanced inputs must be OK
The cables in between are unlikely to cause a level increase -> cables also OK?
Apart from the level setting issues, did the signal from the RMX 60's balanced outputs sound OK when you listened to it via the EPM 6?