The cables are ok, guaranteed.
I switched between three sets of cables, Cordial, Mogami and Chord.
The results are the same.
Ultimately, I think I will switch to a studio mixer interface, like Behringer 1620 or Palmer Monitor XL to solve the issue, or I can just use the unbalanced outputs on the DJ mixers to connect to the EPM6 PA mixer.
I switched between three sets of cables, Cordial, Mogami and Chord.
The results are the same.
Ultimately, I think I will switch to a studio mixer interface, like Behringer 1620 or Palmer Monitor XL to solve the issue, or I can just use the unbalanced outputs on the DJ mixers to connect to the EPM6 PA mixer.
You could also make two balanced attenuators, using six or eight resistors and four XLR connectors. You can also buy those ready made.
Yes, it probably accepts consumer level inputs and not pro levels. You can also try lowering the master output level on the Reloop.
Phone, Mp3 player, computer, Tape deck connected.. what gives ?
I won't usually connect at auxiliary sources directly to the pa mixer.
I run everything through one of my three DJ mixerrs and connect two of the DJ mixers to the pa mixer.
Ant other source connected individually, like the Topping E50 balances outputs or unbalanced outputs, results in a proper gain control on the EPM 6 stereo inputs.
I have to mention that all my player's and DACs with valanced outputs have an output impedance lower than 600 ohms, none of them have more than 300 ohms output impedance on the balanced master output.
I run everything through one of my three DJ mixerrs and connect two of the DJ mixers to the pa mixer.
Ant other source connected individually, like the Topping E50 balances outputs or unbalanced outputs, results in a proper gain control on the EPM 6 stereo inputs.
I have to mention that all my player's and DACs with valanced outputs have an output impedance lower than 600 ohms, none of them have more than 300 ohms output impedance on the balanced master output.
Interestingly enough, if I connect the MCX 8000 or the RMX 60 balanced XLR outputs directly to the Behringer FBQ 6200 HD balanced inputs (input gains set to 0), the levels are spot on correct.
I wonder if it's some sort of common mode issue, like a large mains-frequency ripple superimposed on the signal that some balanced inputs can handle and others can not. Hence my questions about if it sounds normal and if you have any measuring equipment.
Let me describe the behaviour further: the Soundcraft EPM6 has 6 mono channels, where you can connect microphones (via XLR inputs) and line level sources (via the TRS jack inputs), and 2 stereo channels with TRS jack inputs for the left and right channels.
No matter which TRS input I use on the EPM6 mixer to connect the RMX 60 balanced outputs, the signal level on the EPM6 is abnormally high (hitting the 0 dB mark on the meters), even with the gains fully down. Actually, on the mono channels TRS inputs the signal is even higher, hitting +9 on the level meters, with the input gains at the minimum.
That is not normal.
Another strange thing is the fact that the Soundcraft EPM6 user manual states that the TRS line input jacks on the mono channels are balanced and are 20 dB less sensitive (which should be normal for higher impedance line and instruments), but the block diagram of the mono input channels shows that the mono line inputs are actually 15 dB less sensitive.
I measured the XLR outputs of the RMX 60 and the output voltage is correct.
Regarding the sound of the EPM 6 mixer there is nothing wrong with it, meaning I cannot hear any hum or buzzing noise.
No matter which TRS input I use on the EPM6 mixer to connect the RMX 60 balanced outputs, the signal level on the EPM6 is abnormally high (hitting the 0 dB mark on the meters), even with the gains fully down. Actually, on the mono channels TRS inputs the signal is even higher, hitting +9 on the level meters, with the input gains at the minimum.
That is not normal.
Another strange thing is the fact that the Soundcraft EPM6 user manual states that the TRS line input jacks on the mono channels are balanced and are 20 dB less sensitive (which should be normal for higher impedance line and instruments), but the block diagram of the mono input channels shows that the mono line inputs are actually 15 dB less sensitive.
I measured the XLR outputs of the RMX 60 and the output voltage is correct.
Regarding the sound of the EPM 6 mixer there is nothing wrong with it, meaning I cannot hear any hum or buzzing noise.
Very far fetched, but the only thing I can think of at the moment:
Suppose that the EPM6 inputs are unbalanced, tip-sleeve rather than tip-ring-sleeve, even though this contradicts the documentation. The negative side of the TRS plug is then grounded when you plug it in. Depending on whether the balanced output behaves as a floating voltage source between XLR pins 2 and 3 or as two sources of half the voltage to ground, you either get the full voltage or half the voltage at the unbalanced input. That's a 6.02 dB level difference.
Is the difference you are looking for of the order of 6 dB or much greater than that?
Suppose that the EPM6 inputs are unbalanced, tip-sleeve rather than tip-ring-sleeve, even though this contradicts the documentation. The negative side of the TRS plug is then grounded when you plug it in. Depending on whether the balanced output behaves as a floating voltage source between XLR pins 2 and 3 or as two sources of half the voltage to ground, you either get the full voltage or half the voltage at the unbalanced input. That's a 6.02 dB level difference.
Is the difference you are looking for of the order of 6 dB or much greater than that?
Using a cable tester with +4 dBU test tone at 1 kHz, I connected the tester XLR output to the EPM6 stereo inputs and the levels are ok with the input gain knobs set at 0 dB attenuation.
I contacted Soundcraft technical support staff and they confirmed the EPM6 behaviour, but concluded it is normal.
I checked a Soundcraft Ui12, which has a normal 600 Ohm symmetrical output (like your Reloop), and I connected it with the service EPM6.
Here is their response:
"Indeed, if the Ui is set to the usual -9dB average signal level, with the gain control completely turned down, we have an average signal level of 0dB on the analog console.
So we can say that everything is working fine.
If this is not good for you, you need to gain back the Reloop if you want to control the signal level on the EPM.
Best regards,
BALAZS SZENDE
Supervisor, Technical Support Engineer EMEA
Harman Professional Solutions"
The Soundcraft technical engineer mentioned in his reply that he used a Soundcraft UI 12 mixer as a source, because it had a 600 ohm output impedance, but the user manual technical specifications for UI 12 states that all its outputs have an impedance of 100 ohm.
I still have an issue with the EPM 6 stereo input stage, because any mixer should mention a nominal working level for the input stage to allow the user to assess which sources output levels can connect without overloading the mixer input stage (suppose one may use a DAC with no built-in preamplifier).
Take the Soundcraft EPM6 as an example: its stereo input stage gain range is between -10 dB and +20 dB, meaning that, inside this range, should be a unity gain point, where the input signal is neither boosted or attenuated. The EPM 6 inputs don't have the unity gain point clearly marked on the scale.
Actually, except for the Soundcraft Notepad series or other models with simetrical positive and negative gain control, where the 0 dB point would be at 12 o'clock position, all other Soundcraft mixers tend to have the 0 dB attenuation point around 11 o'clock position, which, I suppose, it is the case with the EPM 6 mixer too.
If I were to use this point as a guide and feed the Reloop RMX 60 balanced master output nominal level (0 dB lon the the meters) to the EPM6 balanced stereo inputs, the PFL input signal level is hitting +10 dB on the EPM6 level meters, and +6 dB on the Behringer FBQ 6200 HD level meters, which is high for mastered music.
In my opinion, it may have something to do with the EPM 6 stereo input sensitivity (nominal level) being to high, even with -10 dB gain attenuation.
It seems like it has been designed for sources with low output level, like consumer devices with -10 dBV nominal output levels.
On the Reloop RMX 60 side, I sent both 400 Hz and 1 kHz test tones to its RCA inputs, set the channel gain for a reading of 0 dB on the individual channel meter, set the master output level for a reading of 0 dB on the master output level meters and, using a multimeter, able to measure frequencies in the 10 Hz-10 MHz, set to read Volts AC true RMS, I measured the output signal voltages at the TRS connector side, between tip and ring, tip and sleeve, ring and sleeve. The voltage reading between tip and ring was 1.22 Vrms and between tip-sleeve or ring-sleeve the voltage readings were simetrically equal and half the value of 1.22 Vrms.
I checked a Soundcraft Ui12, which has a normal 600 Ohm symmetrical output (like your Reloop), and I connected it with the service EPM6.
Here is their response:
"Indeed, if the Ui is set to the usual -9dB average signal level, with the gain control completely turned down, we have an average signal level of 0dB on the analog console.
So we can say that everything is working fine.
If this is not good for you, you need to gain back the Reloop if you want to control the signal level on the EPM.
Best regards,
BALAZS SZENDE
Supervisor, Technical Support Engineer EMEA
Harman Professional Solutions"
The Soundcraft technical engineer mentioned in his reply that he used a Soundcraft UI 12 mixer as a source, because it had a 600 ohm output impedance, but the user manual technical specifications for UI 12 states that all its outputs have an impedance of 100 ohm.
I still have an issue with the EPM 6 stereo input stage, because any mixer should mention a nominal working level for the input stage to allow the user to assess which sources output levels can connect without overloading the mixer input stage (suppose one may use a DAC with no built-in preamplifier).
Take the Soundcraft EPM6 as an example: its stereo input stage gain range is between -10 dB and +20 dB, meaning that, inside this range, should be a unity gain point, where the input signal is neither boosted or attenuated. The EPM 6 inputs don't have the unity gain point clearly marked on the scale.
Actually, except for the Soundcraft Notepad series or other models with simetrical positive and negative gain control, where the 0 dB point would be at 12 o'clock position, all other Soundcraft mixers tend to have the 0 dB attenuation point around 11 o'clock position, which, I suppose, it is the case with the EPM 6 mixer too.
If I were to use this point as a guide and feed the Reloop RMX 60 balanced master output nominal level (0 dB lon the the meters) to the EPM6 balanced stereo inputs, the PFL input signal level is hitting +10 dB on the EPM6 level meters, and +6 dB on the Behringer FBQ 6200 HD level meters, which is high for mastered music.
In my opinion, it may have something to do with the EPM 6 stereo input sensitivity (nominal level) being to high, even with -10 dB gain attenuation.
It seems like it has been designed for sources with low output level, like consumer devices with -10 dBV nominal output levels.
On the Reloop RMX 60 side, I sent both 400 Hz and 1 kHz test tones to its RCA inputs, set the channel gain for a reading of 0 dB on the individual channel meter, set the master output level for a reading of 0 dB on the master output level meters and, using a multimeter, able to measure frequencies in the 10 Hz-10 MHz, set to read Volts AC true RMS, I measured the output signal voltages at the TRS connector side, between tip and ring, tip and sleeve, ring and sleeve. The voltage reading between tip and ring was 1.22 Vrms and between tip-sleeve or ring-sleeve the voltage readings were simetrically equal and half the value of 1.22 Vrms.
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can't wrap your head around the fact that different connectivity standards use different scales and that gain is relative...?
What is different between a balanced XLR output and TRS balanced input? Nothing, the connection is still balanced.
What is different between a balanced master output of +4 dBU nominal level and a stereo channel balanced input expecting a nominal input level of +4 dBU? Nothing, both are working at the same nominal level, so the input gain on the latter should be 0.
What is different between a balanced master output of +4 dBU nominal level and a stereo channel balanced input expecting a nominal input level of +4 dBU? Nothing, both are working at the same nominal level, so the input gain on the latter should be 0.
When you put a -10 dB to +20 dB range on a gain control, you will also have a 0 dB attenuation point (unity gain) and this point should have a reference that is the nominal (optimum) level for the input stage. This nominal level may differ depending on the type of equipment (consumer, semiprofessional or professional) and is set at one of the following accepted standards: -10 dBV, 0 dBU or +4 dBU.
If your input stage is designed (referenced) to work optimally at a nominal level of -10 dBV, and you feed it a level of +4 dBU, you are 12 dB too hot and you need an input gain range able to control and lower that hot input signal to the nominal level of -10 dBV expected by the input stage. If your input stage gain range is able to lower the input signal by 10 dB only, you will still have an input signal 2 dB higher.
When I choose my equipment I always aim to have output and input stages working at the same level or as close as possible, in order to avoid adding extra gain to the original source signal and keep the signal chain close to unity gain.
For me, gainstaging means keeping the noise as low as possible and the audio signal as high and as clean as possible.
For me, gain is not relative.
If your input stage is designed (referenced) to work optimally at a nominal level of -10 dBV, and you feed it a level of +4 dBU, you are 12 dB too hot and you need an input gain range able to control and lower that hot input signal to the nominal level of -10 dBV expected by the input stage. If your input stage gain range is able to lower the input signal by 10 dB only, you will still have an input signal 2 dB higher.
When I choose my equipment I always aim to have output and input stages working at the same level or as close as possible, in order to avoid adding extra gain to the original source signal and keep the signal chain close to unity gain.
For me, gainstaging means keeping the noise as low as possible and the audio signal as high and as clean as possible.
For me, gain is not relative.
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the RCA's are at -10 db the XLR outs are +4 db.... so just what is wrong, according to you?
10 db line level pads are easy to build into a connector. i'm surprised to find that are no pads on the input of the EMX.
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Soundcraft EPM6 Stereo 1 and Stereo 2 input channels do not have pads (input attenuators) because they simply don't need it. Stereo input channels on any mixer don't require pads, because they are supposed to work with low inpedance line level signals.
The mono input channels on the EPM6 do have built-in pads on the TRS input jacks.
The Reloop RMX 60 RCA master output nominal level is not -10 dBV, but 0 dBV (plus or minus 2 dB), according the manual, and the measured output level is around 1.22 V RMS.
The balanced XLR master outputs are also 0 dBV and are the ones I want to use, to keep a balanced connection.
Ussualy, on higher quality DJ mixers the RCA master outputs do not usually work at -10 dBV, but at a higher levels like 0 dBU (0.775 V RMS) or 0 dBV (1 V RMS) = +2 dBU.
The record or auxiliary outputs are usually referenced to lower nominal levels (-10 dBV = -8 dBU or 0 dBU).
The mono input channels on the EPM6 do have built-in pads on the TRS input jacks.
The Reloop RMX 60 RCA master output nominal level is not -10 dBV, but 0 dBV (plus or minus 2 dB), according the manual, and the measured output level is around 1.22 V RMS.
The balanced XLR master outputs are also 0 dBV and are the ones I want to use, to keep a balanced connection.
Ussualy, on higher quality DJ mixers the RCA master outputs do not usually work at -10 dBV, but at a higher levels like 0 dBU (0.775 V RMS) or 0 dBV (1 V RMS) = +2 dBU.
The record or auxiliary outputs are usually referenced to lower nominal levels (-10 dBV = -8 dBU or 0 dBU).
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Here's another strange fact about Soundcraft support staff ability to provide clear answers to pertinent questions.
I asked the following:
"I understand your recommendation to lower the master output level on the Reloop RMX 60, but there is something that doesn't add up regarding the Soundcraft EPM6 stereo input gain control, unless it has something to do with the EPM 6 nominal input level (sensitivity). The EPM6 adjustable gain range is from -10 dB to +20 dB, meaning that somewhere inside this range there has to be a 0 dB point (I suppose it is at around 11 o'clock position), called unity gain, where the input signal is neither boosted or attenuated, so that what comes in it is equal to what comes out.
Can you confirm this?
If I am correct in my assumption about the 0 dB point position, would you, please, explain why on this position, the input signal is hitting +10 dB on the EPM6 level meters, wile the Reloop RMX 60 master output registers 0 dB on its level meters on balanced connection?
What is the nominal input level of the EPM 6 stereo input on balanced connection?
What is the main mix nominal output level (0 dB on the meters) on the EPM6 mixer?
I have read al the manuals for the Soundcraft EPM/EFX series and other Soundcraft mixers and I never found anything about nominal input and output levels in the technical specifications or in the operating nstructions."
Soundcraft support staff reply:
"I can only refer to our own documents, which you can find at the links below:
https://www.soundcraft.com/en/produ...m-td-pdf-ff5e82e0-3de1-456b-8230-0eeb0f8cf6ce
https://www.soundcraft.com/en/produ...1130-pdf-3034a911-6eae-4392-87d3-00c80a9b1319
With gain, the goal is to achieve the necessary, appropriate signal/noise ratio, which is easily can be achieved with this mixer and your Reloop unit.
I'm sorry I could not send you the exact dB data.
Have a great day."
Even their own support staff couldn't provide a clear answer about their own product capabilities and specifications.
It's like they don't know what they're selling.
Let's pay attention to what they say in the Soundcraft EPM6 mixer description:
The mixer "provides a stunning +22dB headroom through the console."
According to the EPM 6 technical data sheet, the main mix maximum output level is +20 dBU.
This would mean that the nominal output level (0 dB on the meters) of the EPM 6 master output is -2 dBU or 0.615 V RMS, which is 6 dB lower than the standard +4 dBU nominal level for professional equipment.
I asked the following:
"I understand your recommendation to lower the master output level on the Reloop RMX 60, but there is something that doesn't add up regarding the Soundcraft EPM6 stereo input gain control, unless it has something to do with the EPM 6 nominal input level (sensitivity). The EPM6 adjustable gain range is from -10 dB to +20 dB, meaning that somewhere inside this range there has to be a 0 dB point (I suppose it is at around 11 o'clock position), called unity gain, where the input signal is neither boosted or attenuated, so that what comes in it is equal to what comes out.
Can you confirm this?
If I am correct in my assumption about the 0 dB point position, would you, please, explain why on this position, the input signal is hitting +10 dB on the EPM6 level meters, wile the Reloop RMX 60 master output registers 0 dB on its level meters on balanced connection?
What is the nominal input level of the EPM 6 stereo input on balanced connection?
What is the main mix nominal output level (0 dB on the meters) on the EPM6 mixer?
I have read al the manuals for the Soundcraft EPM/EFX series and other Soundcraft mixers and I never found anything about nominal input and output levels in the technical specifications or in the operating nstructions."
Soundcraft support staff reply:
"I can only refer to our own documents, which you can find at the links below:
https://www.soundcraft.com/en/produ...m-td-pdf-ff5e82e0-3de1-456b-8230-0eeb0f8cf6ce
https://www.soundcraft.com/en/produ...1130-pdf-3034a911-6eae-4392-87d3-00c80a9b1319
With gain, the goal is to achieve the necessary, appropriate signal/noise ratio, which is easily can be achieved with this mixer and your Reloop unit.
I'm sorry I could not send you the exact dB data.
Have a great day."
Even their own support staff couldn't provide a clear answer about their own product capabilities and specifications.
It's like they don't know what they're selling.
Let's pay attention to what they say in the Soundcraft EPM6 mixer description:
The mixer "provides a stunning +22dB headroom through the console."
According to the EPM 6 technical data sheet, the main mix maximum output level is +20 dBU.
This would mean that the nominal output level (0 dB on the meters) of the EPM 6 master output is -2 dBU or 0.615 V RMS, which is 6 dB lower than the standard +4 dBU nominal level for professional equipment.
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i tend to look at gain staging differently...
and i would think that unity is closer to the nine o'clock(or between nine and 10 o'clock) position on those stereo inputs.
and i would think that unity is closer to the nine o'clock(or between nine and 10 o'clock) position on those stereo inputs.
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