I used to love to draw and still do when needed, already owned Chief Architect, have a semi-pro version, took a long time to learn how to use it for my RV, not perfect but good enough so will keep with it.
Not much art to choose from and we both liked the design by the wood stove so just there to look cool for now, will be something there eventually, just removed the window and filled it in a couple of weeks ago.
After more studying and great advice here giving up on OB and FR range for now, maybe when remodel is all done, likely 2 more years or longer, I can play with different designs as will need a fun hobby by then🙂 Of course I have been into audio my entire life at different levels, first speakers built around 1965 or so, first car audio install 1968....
Though not the best place to use them I simply cannot give up my beloved Edgarhorns so here is a new picture of what I am looking into. They are just so tall and deep though I can fit them the one on the right is for no sub, just good low enough bass for decent listening, not really able to play loud deep bass much being in an RV anyway.
Right speaker: I would hope I could do something that would work with the horns and super tweeters on the 10W tube amp but could bi amp as needed.
Left speaker: Much smaller bass cabinet and big sub behind them, I have room to work this out.
Both are just design ideas, lots of work to actually come up with the best solution of course! I started playing with SchetchUp but got lazy, I am sure far easier than what I am used to using!
I do now want line arrays, been listening to KEF LA for 5 years now, time for a change!
For now using what I can while doing the rest of the area remodel work, Martin Logan Vision X sound bar. It was on the old back wall below built in cabinets, bass was better than now being on the ceiling out from the new back wall 2 ft but the rest sounds much better than before, pretty amazing for $225 on CraigsList🙂
Three days ago I moved the window on the left up 5.5 inches, I was below the old cabinets and once I decided and built the new back wall and put the window higher than planned(was going to keep the old fiberglass cap but it was going to be a pain to make look good) I added more space and then had to raise that window up as just to low.
Not much art to choose from and we both liked the design by the wood stove so just there to look cool for now, will be something there eventually, just removed the window and filled it in a couple of weeks ago.
After more studying and great advice here giving up on OB and FR range for now, maybe when remodel is all done, likely 2 more years or longer, I can play with different designs as will need a fun hobby by then🙂 Of course I have been into audio my entire life at different levels, first speakers built around 1965 or so, first car audio install 1968....
Though not the best place to use them I simply cannot give up my beloved Edgarhorns so here is a new picture of what I am looking into. They are just so tall and deep though I can fit them the one on the right is for no sub, just good low enough bass for decent listening, not really able to play loud deep bass much being in an RV anyway.
Right speaker: I would hope I could do something that would work with the horns and super tweeters on the 10W tube amp but could bi amp as needed.
Left speaker: Much smaller bass cabinet and big sub behind them, I have room to work this out.
Both are just design ideas, lots of work to actually come up with the best solution of course! I started playing with SchetchUp but got lazy, I am sure far easier than what I am used to using!
I do now want line arrays, been listening to KEF LA for 5 years now, time for a change!
For now using what I can while doing the rest of the area remodel work, Martin Logan Vision X sound bar. It was on the old back wall below built in cabinets, bass was better than now being on the ceiling out from the new back wall 2 ft but the rest sounds much better than before, pretty amazing for $225 on CraigsList🙂
Three days ago I moved the window on the left up 5.5 inches, I was below the old cabinets and once I decided and built the new back wall and put the window higher than planned(was going to keep the old fiberglass cap but it was going to be a pain to make look good) I added more space and then had to raise that window up as just to low.
I am open to any box design that will work, front or rear horn loaded, dual drivers(as long as affordable) ported, TL, etc....as long as can play from around 80-300 hz if use subwoofers, 30-300 if no subs. If I can get below 30 that would be great and might be fine a bit above 30, willing to listen to suggestions of course!
Not likely to get to the Edgarhorns until spring or early summer, winter is hear and I work outside under a canopy.
Thanks,
Rick
Not likely to get to the Edgarhorns until spring or early summer, winter is hear and I work outside under a canopy.
Thanks,
Rick
It'd be very easy to get speakers to go from 80Hz and up. Don't even need a TL or port for that.
A couple years back, I built a MLTL using the racetrack woofer SB15SFCR39 and the wide range SB65WBAC25. Placing the woofer vertically, it made a much smaller baffle. It was able to reach 35Hz in a sizable room, so it should give you output down to the thirties in your smaller space.
If you are looking for one of the best performance / price ratio, SBAcoustics is one of the best. The quality build and sound from them is really something.
A couple years back, I built a MLTL using the racetrack woofer SB15SFCR39 and the wide range SB65WBAC25. Placing the woofer vertically, it made a much smaller baffle. It was able to reach 35Hz in a sizable room, so it should give you output down to the thirties in your smaller space.
If you are looking for one of the best performance / price ratio, SBAcoustics is one of the best. The quality build and sound from them is really something.
I have to agree on SB, I have a bunch of 6" midbass drivers in storage I bought years ago, along with Seas tweeters and quality crossover parts, DIY in wall kits, etc. I was looking at Seas Midbass driver but was talked into the SB, still cheap, must of been dirt cheap then🙂 It was for a space I just could not setup a proper system and it was not the main listening setup in that room so it was only for the TV with a single 15" powered sub. I never installed them so sending to a buddy for his family room.
I had the Edgarhorns, tube amp, four 15's....for the audio system on a separate wall.
I have been looking at the specs on SB 8,10 and 12" drivers, quite nice.
The racetrack would look cool but I have plenty of space below the horns for a pretty good size cabinet and I need high SPL so dual drivers perhaps...I would really like to just use my 10 watt tube amp for the whole system if possible. The 3 way Edgarhorns are 100db speakers so I want the replacement midbass or midbass, woofer down to 30 hz or so to be at least close to that.
I can go as big as 14 W, 21 D and 32T which is over 4 cubic ft. Or I can go and like better, 12 or 13W, 18 or less deep, 32T and be around 3 cubic ft. I have to learn hornrep it seems, not to excited by that as busy with other things but I have time to take the time to learn it. Something like a folded TL, etc....would most likely work the best.
Thanks🙂
I had the Edgarhorns, tube amp, four 15's....for the audio system on a separate wall.
I have been looking at the specs on SB 8,10 and 12" drivers, quite nice.
The racetrack would look cool but I have plenty of space below the horns for a pretty good size cabinet and I need high SPL so dual drivers perhaps...I would really like to just use my 10 watt tube amp for the whole system if possible. The 3 way Edgarhorns are 100db speakers so I want the replacement midbass or midbass, woofer down to 30 hz or so to be at least close to that.
I can go as big as 14 W, 21 D and 32T which is over 4 cubic ft. Or I can go and like better, 12 or 13W, 18 or less deep, 32T and be around 3 cubic ft. I have to learn hornrep it seems, not to excited by that as busy with other things but I have time to take the time to learn it. Something like a folded TL, etc....would most likely work the best.
Thanks🙂
HornResp looks daunting, but once you get the idea that S1, S2, etc.. are the CSA of that section, and L12, L23, etc.. are the length between S1 and S2, between S2 and S3, and HornResp just connects those together.
Visually easier was LeonardAudioTransmissionLine app. Someone made an installer for the now unsupported app, but the filling section was not as reliable as HornResp, which continues to be updated.
Visually easier was LeonardAudioTransmissionLine app. Someone made an installer for the now unsupported app, but the filling section was not as reliable as HornResp, which continues to be updated.
For a transmission line system, using one of the three Method MJK 2021 alignments in the TL Design tool, would be a good place to start.
Attachments
Any chance of getting the MJK TL to take into account Rg, so <0.25 Qt drivers can be simmed?
Snail shape enclosures work great at absorbing the back reflection. Have you checked out the Nautaloss thread?
The inside is filled with polyfill stuffing.
Just need to add baffle step compensation and it would be perfect. Maybe 1mH and 4.7ohm in parallel.
The inside is filled with polyfill stuffing.
Just need to add baffle step compensation and it would be perfect. Maybe 1mH and 4.7ohm in parallel.
Thanks for all the great responses!
I spent many years working on exceptionally complex electronics systems, much of it without any training and sometimes without repair manuals. Sometimes in critical periods where the stress level was very intense(US Navy, not as bad as being on a battle field of course) and I just became burned out on it. I turned down very good paying jobs when I retired, just no longer interested. That said, I hit a block when learning certain new things I have to work to overcome. Though I used to be in the upper level of intelligence not sure I am any longer, at least in some ways, at least I do not have PTSD as have been tested for that.
I have designed and built many things, dozens of hobbies, even race cars, that foam core stuff just seems wrong, not stiff enough, I will have to play with it sometime and see, got my curiosity up about it. I will likely end up building different speakers over the years once the remodel is done, RV remodel to the level we are going takes about 3-4 times longer that working on a house which I have a lot of experience doing. I am doing all the design, drawing, wiring, plumbing, cabinets, furniture, countertops, windows, doors, adding insulation everywhere, shielding, etc......and loving it. I keep saying only 1,000 hours to go though I put in much more than that this year so far. Extending the length was far more involved than I imagined but I can now fit a decent audio system in it so worth it!
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Mr McBean, I have been looking at your contributions a great deal and very much appreciated your work!!!!!
Would a TL be the best option in your experience or might another alignment work better, or easier, or both?
I would not mind dual drivers per side if that keeps the enclosure volume lower(like a push pull setup) , dual 8, 10 or single 12 whatever it takes and whatever driver as long as not crazy expensive(this place eats up funds faster than coming in!) There is a sale on SB Acoustics that look promising though I have not been able to get to the Edgarhorns to measure the midbass drivers, buried deep in storage until spring. I just recalled, I have spare drivers I just might be able to get to, I bought them for the midbass and hard to get JBL for the horns.
I want to do my best to retain the big mil spec oil filled caps, ribbon inductors and good resistors in the EH's if I can go passive and get the output needed using just my tube amp. If I have to go active then I would not have to deal with that.
I have bought drivers for $1- all the way up to hundreds of dollars and almost always found, as in most things, there are great values to be had🙂
THANKS!
Rick
I spent many years working on exceptionally complex electronics systems, much of it without any training and sometimes without repair manuals. Sometimes in critical periods where the stress level was very intense(US Navy, not as bad as being on a battle field of course) and I just became burned out on it. I turned down very good paying jobs when I retired, just no longer interested. That said, I hit a block when learning certain new things I have to work to overcome. Though I used to be in the upper level of intelligence not sure I am any longer, at least in some ways, at least I do not have PTSD as have been tested for that.
I have designed and built many things, dozens of hobbies, even race cars, that foam core stuff just seems wrong, not stiff enough, I will have to play with it sometime and see, got my curiosity up about it. I will likely end up building different speakers over the years once the remodel is done, RV remodel to the level we are going takes about 3-4 times longer that working on a house which I have a lot of experience doing. I am doing all the design, drawing, wiring, plumbing, cabinets, furniture, countertops, windows, doors, adding insulation everywhere, shielding, etc......and loving it. I keep saying only 1,000 hours to go though I put in much more than that this year so far. Extending the length was far more involved than I imagined but I can now fit a decent audio system in it so worth it!
------------
Mr McBean, I have been looking at your contributions a great deal and very much appreciated your work!!!!!
Would a TL be the best option in your experience or might another alignment work better, or easier, or both?
I would not mind dual drivers per side if that keeps the enclosure volume lower(like a push pull setup) , dual 8, 10 or single 12 whatever it takes and whatever driver as long as not crazy expensive(this place eats up funds faster than coming in!) There is a sale on SB Acoustics that look promising though I have not been able to get to the Edgarhorns to measure the midbass drivers, buried deep in storage until spring. I just recalled, I have spare drivers I just might be able to get to, I bought them for the midbass and hard to get JBL for the horns.
SB Acoustics SB29NRX75-8 10"
Satori WO24P-4 9.5"
Of course I am all for cheap great drivers as well, the EH midbass drivers work great but cost peanuts when I bought them.I want to do my best to retain the big mil spec oil filled caps, ribbon inductors and good resistors in the EH's if I can go passive and get the output needed using just my tube amp. If I have to go active then I would not have to deal with that.
I have bought drivers for $1- all the way up to hundreds of dollars and almost always found, as in most things, there are great values to be had🙂
THANKS!
Rick
Hi Rich,
Thank you for your service to our country. Looks like you have a lot of great experience and DIY audio is the perfect place to use all of that knowledge to make great sounding speakers and amps.
Don’t knock foam core speakers until you try them. They let you build quickly and cheaply to test new ideas on your kitchen table with nothing more than a razor and hot melt glue. If it works you can always build a wooden version. Foam core gave me the ability to make 50+ speakers (TL, BLH, reflex, DCR, 6th order slot loaded bandpass, synergy, etc) which was immensely valuable.
It turns out that foam has natural damping properties and when braced well can perform as good if not better than traditional construction with Baltic Birch plywood.
Check this out:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/post-6141000
Two cabinets with identical drivers, XO, but one in XPS foam and the other in BB. Look at the measurements and level of harmonic distortion. I have cabinet makers who make stuff for me in wood nowadays but I still use foamcore when I want to try out a quick idea.
Thank you for your service to our country. Looks like you have a lot of great experience and DIY audio is the perfect place to use all of that knowledge to make great sounding speakers and amps.
Don’t knock foam core speakers until you try them. They let you build quickly and cheaply to test new ideas on your kitchen table with nothing more than a razor and hot melt glue. If it works you can always build a wooden version. Foam core gave me the ability to make 50+ speakers (TL, BLH, reflex, DCR, 6th order slot loaded bandpass, synergy, etc) which was immensely valuable.
It turns out that foam has natural damping properties and when braced well can perform as good if not better than traditional construction with Baltic Birch plywood.
Check this out:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/post-6141000
Two cabinets with identical drivers, XO, but one in XPS foam and the other in BB. Look at the measurements and level of harmonic distortion. I have cabinet makers who make stuff for me in wood nowadays but I still use foamcore when I want to try out a quick idea.
I agree about BB plywood, I switched to it from MDF and lightweight MDF over 20 years ago🙂 I was far more into car audio for a very long time, used to compete, did well, it many ways easier to build than doing a house system, as long as not afraid of a lot of work deadening, etc.....
At some time I will have to play with foam speaker enclosures, seems like great fun🙂
I actually have 3 or more kinds of foam insulation boards in .5, .1, 1.5 and 2.0 thicknesses.
And a good table saw and many other good tools.
Cold spell hitting soon, been colder than normal fall and early winter after a long hot summer but got a lot done as smoked out 3 seasons in a row due to CA wildfires, 2021 was terrible, close to evacuating twice, all loaded and ready to go.
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What I need is an 80-300hz, 99db or so, very easy to drive bass setup so I can place my horns and super tweeters on top and not be as big as the horn bass units now, 33Tx14.5Wx21D.
I know horns are not likely to work well in the space we have but I have to test them!
Thanks🙂
Rick
At some time I will have to play with foam speaker enclosures, seems like great fun🙂
I actually have 3 or more kinds of foam insulation boards in .5, .1, 1.5 and 2.0 thicknesses.
And a good table saw and many other good tools.
Cold spell hitting soon, been colder than normal fall and early winter after a long hot summer but got a lot done as smoked out 3 seasons in a row due to CA wildfires, 2021 was terrible, close to evacuating twice, all loaded and ready to go.
----------
What I need is an 80-300hz, 99db or so, very easy to drive bass setup so I can place my horns and super tweeters on top and not be as big as the horn bass units now, 33Tx14.5Wx21D.
I know horns are not likely to work well in the space we have but I have to test them!
Thanks🙂
Rick
Maybe a SLOB bass array with 8x 8in woofer in a U baffle. you can get 300Hz top end and close to 99dB sensitivity if you use some 90dB drivers.
I like that idea a great deal as it is so different from most others🙂
How low do they generally go? I imagine pretty low indeed.
Just looked, some at least have a sub on the bottom. Perhaps that would work out for my needs or I could build the subs as per the pictures posted, one per side, not just one shown. Only 9" deep, same as the bookshelves above them. In some drawings I have the bookshelves all the way down to the subs and could use the as part of room treatment as needed.
Thanks,
Rick
How low do they generally go? I imagine pretty low indeed.
Just looked, some at least have a sub on the bottom. Perhaps that would work out for my needs or I could build the subs as per the pictures posted, one per side, not just one shown. Only 9" deep, same as the bookshelves above them. In some drawings I have the bookshelves all the way down to the subs and could use the as part of room treatment as needed.
Thanks,
Rick
For some reason I thought they had 8 bass drivers per side, not 4, maybe another design I have seen lately.
4 per side so 8 total. With 8 x 6.5in drivers the cone area is a little more than two 12in drivers but the front baffle area is reduced. Also, the distortion is reduced if you put the magnet facing in on one side to cancel suspension induced distortion. Wire the drivers 4 parallel / 2 series / 2 parallel for nominal 4 ohms overall with 8 ohm drivers. With 8x 8in woofers, the performance should be even better with regards to bass depth and punch.
Drivers should be mounted like this:
Drivers should be mounted like this:
I really like this and so does my wife though I can build anything I want as long as just not poorly done she will be cool with it. I have a most incredible partner in life, to say the least🙂
I can do the math but it seems eight 8's would be around the same as two 15's, perhaps more! If it could go deep enough to not need subs for music, not into HT, never have been, just great music.
My dual 15 massive horn we had would massage your feet on the other side of the house but was dang fine and music, might go gotten down to 25 hz though never measured it, might of only been 30 but was all we wanted. Eventually I swapped it out for four seal 15's in separate enclosures so I could place them as needed, two 1,800 class H amps still could not do what the dual 15 horn did on 1kw AB. Now in the RV, just not able to that if we wanted to. Actually I know enough to do it but do not want to. I considered building on an exterior folded horn for dual 15's, it would of been quite large indeed, too big probably so two 12s or even 10's would of been better.
Looking for cheap effective 8's, found these at PE, Fs is 39, Qts .40, 3mm xmas pretty low but should not need much with so many drivers. Full range, not a problem, just cut off the whizzers, if needed.
PE full range 8's $13.98 each Pioneer type by GRS
Found this, even better, big brother to the GRS 6PR-8🙂
GRS 8PR-8 $13.49 buy 12+ $12.14
If these will do the job I should buy them right away!
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Or these, same driver in 10", lower SF, use 6 per side instead of 8, let me know what you think, please🙂
GRS 10PR-8 (though not listed the SD will likely be less with 6 tens than eight 8's, bigger enclosure, more weight, more cost and to big to stack 4x2, to tall.
I can do the math but it seems eight 8's would be around the same as two 15's, perhaps more! If it could go deep enough to not need subs for music, not into HT, never have been, just great music.
My dual 15 massive horn we had would massage your feet on the other side of the house but was dang fine and music, might go gotten down to 25 hz though never measured it, might of only been 30 but was all we wanted. Eventually I swapped it out for four seal 15's in separate enclosures so I could place them as needed, two 1,800 class H amps still could not do what the dual 15 horn did on 1kw AB. Now in the RV, just not able to that if we wanted to. Actually I know enough to do it but do not want to. I considered building on an exterior folded horn for dual 15's, it would of been quite large indeed, too big probably so two 12s or even 10's would of been better.
Looking for cheap effective 8's, found these at PE, Fs is 39, Qts .40, 3mm xmas pretty low but should not need much with so many drivers. Full range, not a problem, just cut off the whizzers, if needed.
PE full range 8's $13.98 each Pioneer type by GRS
Found this, even better, big brother to the GRS 6PR-8🙂
GRS 8PR-8 $13.49 buy 12+ $12.14
If these will do the job I should buy them right away!
----------------------------------------
Or these, same driver in 10", lower SF, use 6 per side instead of 8, let me know what you think, please🙂
GRS 10PR-8 (though not listed the SD will likely be less with 6 tens than eight 8's, bigger enclosure, more weight, more cost and to big to stack 4x2, to tall.
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I like this, my program does not make it easy to create these things so best I can do, resized for eight 8s, horns stylized to be more modern, as in the last picture shown.
EG uppers and eight 8's on left, no sub.
EG uppers and lowers on right, needs sub, 15" would be one per side, could do 12's but I have the 15s and can make them fit, even recessed into rear wall could end up only 7" deep and can be more compact than shown.
I hope this can work out, the left side, we both really like this🙂
I could build the book cases to the floor and out to the sides of the desk then try different layouts of books and other things to see how it sounds.
48" tall panels all around to stop reflections, etc, as needed, easy to make and test.
EG uppers and eight 8's on left, no sub.
EG uppers and lowers on right, needs sub, 15" would be one per side, could do 12's but I have the 15s and can make them fit, even recessed into rear wall could end up only 7" deep and can be more compact than shown.
I hope this can work out, the left side, we both really like this🙂
I could build the book cases to the floor and out to the sides of the desk then try different layouts of books and other things to see how it sounds.
48" tall panels all around to stop reflections, etc, as needed, easy to make and test.
The GRS 8PR-8 will work just fine. The link you gave shows 6.5in. These are the ones you want.
https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-8PR-8-8-Poly-Cone-Rubber-Surround-Woofer-292-428?quantity=1
You might want to add Noico mass loaded butyl to the steel frame legs to reduce resonance vibrations. It’s all in my XSD speaker thread.
8x 8in woofers will give some amazing bass. Plus it looks like the front baffle width is about same as your midrange top. Thanks for taking the plunge with SLOB concept for the bass.
https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-8PR-8-8-Poly-Cone-Rubber-Surround-Woofer-292-428?quantity=1
You might want to add Noico mass loaded butyl to the steel frame legs to reduce resonance vibrations. It’s all in my XSD speaker thread.
8x 8in woofers will give some amazing bass. Plus it looks like the front baffle width is about same as your midrange top. Thanks for taking the plunge with SLOB concept for the bass.