You don't seem to be familiar with Purifi's specific claims at all. It has nothing to do with harmonic distortion at low frequencies. But it is a phenomenon I think everyone in this forum has experienced. I want to look into this distortion mechanism more. All these suggestions about what size woofer to use, has no relevance here, I don't know why you've brought it up again. I'm asking about the best way to cook a steak and you make long posts about your preferred fruit.
EDIT: yes the 8" MISCO woofer I'm waiting for has the same XBL2 motor as the 6502.
EDIT: yes the 8" MISCO woofer I'm waiting for has the same XBL2 motor as the 6502.
I am very familiar with these drivers thank you.
And what I am trying to explain is that there NO perfect way of cooking a steak.
And I am definitely still talking about the steak, no fruits involved.
I think the main reason why the phase plug version is less impressive is because the surround is much narrower. This causes the suspension to limit xmax whereas with the non phase plug version this isn't the case.
I think they were trying to create a driver for two way systems but it's high frequency performance is such that I would never want to use it that way.
The Purifi are absurdity with regards to price. As you said there's nothing in the drivers that makes them cost that much to make.
They are state of the art though. If you look at hificompass you'll see that they have the lowest imd and pretty much the lowest midband distortion too. The performance is there but the price is not. Especially when you consider how much the Reckhorn costs, yes I'm sure the Reckhorn is fairly basic in its motor and soft parts, but to swap them out to Purifi stuff would cost almost nothing.
Improving driver performance is admirable but only if it's cost competitive. In my eyes there's no point to improving technology unless it eventually becomes the norm. We don't need more expensive drivers. What we need are the Purifi at SB Acoustics Standard range prices.
I think they were trying to create a driver for two way systems but it's high frequency performance is such that I would never want to use it that way.
The Purifi are absurdity with regards to price. As you said there's nothing in the drivers that makes them cost that much to make.
They are state of the art though. If you look at hificompass you'll see that they have the lowest imd and pretty much the lowest midband distortion too. The performance is there but the price is not. Especially when you consider how much the Reckhorn costs, yes I'm sure the Reckhorn is fairly basic in its motor and soft parts, but to swap them out to Purifi stuff would cost almost nothing.
Improving driver performance is admirable but only if it's cost competitive. In my eyes there's no point to improving technology unless it eventually becomes the norm. We don't need more expensive drivers. What we need are the Purifi at SB Acoustics Standard range prices.
Oh come now Matt,
I've lived in London and I've lived in Canada and I've lived in Australia. And our neighbor Indonesia, I'm intimately familiar with.
Between friends we can't expect a driver made in Denmark, or England (or Australia) to cost the same as that in Indonesia.
The median salary of an Indonesian is about a third of the median salary in China, which is about a 5th of that in Australia. (USD $3K, 10K, 50K/year respectively).
How much does a pub beer or Big Mac cost in Denmark? @lrisbo
How are we going to get Australian skilled laborer's to design/build loudspeaker drivers to compete with that made in Indonesia?
We have a skills shortage here in Australia which means a diesel mechanic can earn $100-150K GBP/year...
Last I heard an Australian made Halcro amplifier or DEQX DSP costs a small fortune...
This is comparative advantage that I've slowly coming around to accept - it's just the way the world is. We have such a labor shortage that we rely on imported workers to pick fruit and vegetables here in Australia- no one really wants to accept that the true cost of a head of lettuce is probably closer to $AUD6 (3GBP)
best regards,
Thanh
I've lived in London and I've lived in Canada and I've lived in Australia. And our neighbor Indonesia, I'm intimately familiar with.
Between friends we can't expect a driver made in Denmark, or England (or Australia) to cost the same as that in Indonesia.
The median salary of an Indonesian is about a third of the median salary in China, which is about a 5th of that in Australia. (USD $3K, 10K, 50K/year respectively).
How much does a pub beer or Big Mac cost in Denmark? @lrisbo
How are we going to get Australian skilled laborer's to design/build loudspeaker drivers to compete with that made in Indonesia?
We have a skills shortage here in Australia which means a diesel mechanic can earn $100-150K GBP/year...
Last I heard an Australian made Halcro amplifier or DEQX DSP costs a small fortune...
This is comparative advantage that I've slowly coming around to accept - it's just the way the world is. We have such a labor shortage that we rely on imported workers to pick fruit and vegetables here in Australia- no one really wants to accept that the true cost of a head of lettuce is probably closer to $AUD6 (3GBP)
best regards,
Thanh
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Thanks for getting into the subject! 🙂
I find it a little hard to believe that just only a surround will cause so many issues?
According to Klippel the significance of the surround isn't so substantial.
Although that's all about the Fs area, for midrange it's usually other things that's causing issues.
It could be some kind of cone resonance that's all of a sudden different without the dustcap or something?
Although that seems a little to far fetched for me.
And yes they are state of the art, very nicely build drivers and perform extremely well, there is no doubt about that.
But people seem to forget that "nice looking" is very expensive even for other (brand) speakers with a crappy performance.
And yes there are many in the same price range that are just a joke, so I have to give them those credits at least.
If you understand the technical essential parts (since that argument was being made), you simply MUST understand that those things can be implemented in drivers that can be sold for a much lower price.
(and if you don't than you don't understand it at all)
You can have exactly the same performance in a bare bone unit, which probably will be 1/4-1/3 of the price to manufacture.
That being said I don't think those Reckhorn woofers will be in de same category.
I even doubt that they put much effort in using a progressive spider and/or a much better system around the gap.
People seem to totally forget that loudspeakers are still a commercial product.
Or in very simple terms, companies want your money.
There are plenty of other manufactures able to produce speakers for very competing prices without any obscure production labor. If they can do it, others can do it as well.
The rest is all non-arguments are just relaying on a small niche were people are willing to pay big bucks.
Nothing wrong with paying big bucks, but I am here for the technical side of things.
Because in the end this is not a technical discussion in the sense of audio and acoustics, but a technical discussion in sense of marketing, production and sales.
But anyway, going back to the subject.
You simply can NOT answer the question about what the best way is to cook a steak.
Since it heavily depends on the meal and recipe you're making and using.
For loudspeakers it's exactly the same, it all depends on context.
Context that is relevant by definition, since there are multiple ways to skin a cat.
Unless your use case is extremely niche and unique that there is absolutely no way to use anything else except a purifi driver.
I find that scenario extremely unlikely.
I'm not saying they need to be made in Australia/US/UK/EU etc, or by Purifi. The Reckhorn is a German product and costs €35, so it can be done. There's no reason why drivers have to be expensive. They aren't even difficult to manufacture nor do they require expensive tooling by modern standards. Drivers are basic technology.
Reckhorn is not made in Germany, there is a German "company" behind it. (well it's more like a one or few man band kind of thing)
But the drivers are being made in Asia.
Nothing wrong with that btw, SB Acoustics and many many other brands show that you can have very well made products from Asia.
I would not say that drivers are totally basic technology.
But the best way to describe it, is how the guys from Kartesian said it (also good alternative for a price that's much more fair).
Making a progressive well made spider vs your standard meh performing spider isn't that costly at all.
It's a matter of changing the mold those spiders are made with.
This is just one single and simple example, but there are many like that.
The bulk of the costs don't come from these new technologies.
(and if so, you have your business model completely wrong)
Not speaking about the horrendous patent silliness and trolls out there
Blocking entire industries and therefor people for getting well made products for affordable prices.
So rather to call something great, it's more like that how the rest produces is just unwillingness and silly.
MISCO is another manufacturer that shows that one can have very well performing speakers for a fair price.
But anyway, people don't seem to wanna solve their real issues or wanna learn anything about the industry, so probably no-one is being bothered about all of this.
Happy day dreaming ....... Just buy what you think suits you best, I am sure you will feel great about it! 🙂
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Yes exactly although the phase plug version actually has better mid performance than the dust cap. Less dip at 1.2kHz and the upper breakup isn't as bad.
To be honest the only real issue is the elevated 2nd order within this range. This is nothing massively unusual lots of drivers have this with the surround/cone edge resonance. The 3rd order is impressively low though. I do not like drivers that exhibit these resonance issues and associated 2nd order. I do not care that I probably can't hear it. It just doesn't sit well with me.
I'm all for design in Germany manufacter in China if it makes economic sense.
And I'm absolutely saying that with the Purifi what do we have here? Progressive spider, funky surround, lots of copper in the gap and a voice coil wound differently than normal. None of this is expensive. Or that much more expensive Vs what's inside the Reckhorn. So €35 for Reckhorn €50 for Reckhorn mark 2 with Purifi parts.
I have to look into it again.
Unfortunately the measurements at VoiceCoil magazine are meh at best (no higher order harmonics etc, only one SPL etc).
So I would love to see another person testing these. 🙂
Well in purifi we see a little more than that to be perfectly honest.
Especially the motor structure isn't easily of the shelf part and the rubber surround needs a dedicated mold.
On the other hand not as wildly different than some other manufactures have, yet still a process that's a little more involved.
Keep in mind that for production costs the performance of the speaker is irrelevant.
Or in simple words, it will cost you the same for milling out the good or wrong part.
Looking at the competition (mostly focusing on the technical production quality) I would suggest somewhere around $100-180 consumer price that is. (OEM is a totally different story)
You can go lower, but it all depends on production yield and such.
Reckhorns are basically just a tweak on a mass produced item
Nothing wrong with that btw, but it describes a way to get costs down.
Yes but if you're going to make something just make it the right way from the start. Tool the motors to be the higher performance versions. Tool the surround molds the right shape. Let the state of the art change so the basic off the shelf surround is the Purifi surround type etc.
This is what needs to change in my opinion.
I'm not saying that the €50 Reckhorn, with upgraded Purifi parts, needs to perform as well as the fully optimised Purifi does. Just let the technology trickle down so that the basic parts are upgraded for a performance increase.
It's like the case of the Vifa TC9. If a €10 driver can have a copper sleeve over the pole then virtually any driver can. So why isn't copper in the gap the new norm? I'm fed up with seeing reasonably expensive drivers being brought to market that omit such obvious, and basic, technologies that then have poor performance. It's like why? I don't get it.
Like for all the goodness that the E180HE appears to have (on paper) why on earth did Dayton let it be brought to market with such lackluster performance? And these are what I consider premium parts! It's like get it right damnit.
This is what needs to change in my opinion.
I'm not saying that the €50 Reckhorn, with upgraded Purifi parts, needs to perform as well as the fully optimised Purifi does. Just let the technology trickle down so that the basic parts are upgraded for a performance increase.
It's like the case of the Vifa TC9. If a €10 driver can have a copper sleeve over the pole then virtually any driver can. So why isn't copper in the gap the new norm? I'm fed up with seeing reasonably expensive drivers being brought to market that omit such obvious, and basic, technologies that then have poor performance. It's like why? I don't get it.
Like for all the goodness that the E180HE appears to have (on paper) why on earth did Dayton let it be brought to market with such lackluster performance? And these are what I consider premium parts! It's like get it right damnit.
yes, well welcome to the world of audio.
Some manufactures still sell exactly the same parts that have been developed (and produced) over 30 years ago.....
Sometimes for quite a hefty price. (because vintage is more better these days it seems)
As long as we keep buying that stuff it will exist, but it's a total cash cow obviously.
The tech world totally upside down, the same for the lack of proper datasheets
(something that is already around for almost a century in electronics)
But I personally also find it frustrating.
Especially the whole semi secret vague voodoo'ish attitude about it.
Some manufactures have like in a range with almost the same driver.
They all use pretty much the same basket, but some have a better motor, some have a copper cap, some have both but only comes with a fancy ceramic type cone.
The simplest (and cheapest) design with copper cap and better motor isn't available of course.
Welcome to marketing 101 🙁
btw, like I said, totally different story for OEM in most cases one get a special made variant just for like 500 MOQ.
To answer the question on the why on earth, in some cases because of patents that were in some peoples hands but didn't know how to fully exploit it (so we could all benefit from it).
There are only so many ways to do something right at a certain point, and if that way is done and patented by someone who doesn't want to do much with it, we simply have to wait for 20 years.
(upcoming two years are getting very interesting because of this)
Another way very often is simply because nobody ever thought of it or took action.
And as silly as that sounds, as a technical consultant I can tell that it happens way more often than you think.
Jumpin' Jesus on a pogo stick...
I'll try a third time. My inquiry has nothing to do with Purifi woofers! I don't care about their price, or the state of global driver manufacturing. I'm curious about a distortion mechanism they've pointed out. A mechanism that I suspect may be why different drivers misbehave before others, even though the harmonic distortion plot doesn't suggest that it should. They lay out a test method and a way to look at Klippel results to see how a driver might behave in this regard. I'd like to understand it better, first so I can pick a woofer for a 3-way. The MISCO tie-in is because its Klippel results suggest it could have this better behavior. Second, 3rd-party measurements might benefit from including this distortion test.
I'll try a third time. My inquiry has nothing to do with Purifi woofers! I don't care about their price, or the state of global driver manufacturing. I'm curious about a distortion mechanism they've pointed out. A mechanism that I suspect may be why different drivers misbehave before others, even though the harmonic distortion plot doesn't suggest that it should. They lay out a test method and a way to look at Klippel results to see how a driver might behave in this regard. I'd like to understand it better, first so I can pick a woofer for a 3-way. The MISCO tie-in is because its Klippel results suggest it could have this better behavior. Second, 3rd-party measurements might benefit from including this distortion test.
I’m interested in these Misco drivers too.
Looking forward to seeing test results and your impressions on the 8”.
may the moment it looks like they are only available in CONUS
Looking forward to seeing test results and your impressions on the 8”.
may the moment it looks like they are only available in CONUS
Have you considered the Exodus Audio Anarchy? It's half the cost, it's available now, it has 33% more xmax, lower distortion and XBL2.
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-exodus-audio-w06-017r-anarchy
It's "only" 7.1" in diameter, but with the additional 33% of xmax, I imagine it will compete with the eight inch woofer from Bold North Audio.
Attachments
John> yep I looked at the Anarchy. Very similar Klippel, but I think the MISCO has optimized soft parts a bit better, with a broader Kms(x). I also like the Le(x) variation is both miniscule and symmetric in the MISCO (also mentioned by Purifi) versus the Anarchy. So the MISCO has better harmonc distortion in the region I'm looking at. That said, if this distortion mechanism is an important and under-appreciated problem, the Anarchy is a no-brainer for a lower cost design.
Nice.
I have a bunch that I'll hopefully use for a super-shallow tapped horn. Similar to this, but shallower:
I have a bunch that I'll hopefully use for a super-shallow tapped horn. Similar to this, but shallower:
I agree, if the 8 inch MISCO will be similar to the 6 inch, it could be a potential good candidate.
Why not going for some Wavecor? They perform extremely well and are in the same price range.
The reason why people are pogo sticking around is because it's still very unclear what the exact context is, except "a 3-way system".
Also kind of ironic and hilarious, but you do realize that purifi themselves basically even say that going full-range is a bad idea to begin with?
Or in other words, just go for a separate bass/subwoofer and save the money for other things in your system.
Which is nothing new at all, in fact this has already been known for years in "the science".
There is only a little debate in how audible things are, but that has been a debates for many many decades.
(mostly because a lot depends again on context)
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For those who want to read along but don't have a subscription, the E180HE article is finally online.
https://audioxpress.com/article/tes...e-subwoofer-from-the-dayton-audio-epique-line
https://audioxpress.com/article/tes...e-subwoofer-from-the-dayton-audio-epique-line
Hmf. I like the MISCO a lot better. I have both woofers on hand. I'd like to see how they respond to Erin's multitone (Purifi inspired) testing to make the final call though.