I've had two prominent speaker designers tell me bass can only get so good. The Bordeaux loudspeakers for example, has its designer stating he doesn't know how to get better Bass then the Dayton audio reference series can give him according to the Distortion measurements ge gets.
Another designer says never spend mire than the cost if LRoy woofers ... because your SQ will not improve.
Are there bass drivers that actually sound better, IF the distortion is already super low?
Thanks for the education!
Another designer says never spend mire than the cost if LRoy woofers ... because your SQ will not improve.
Are there bass drivers that actually sound better, IF the distortion is already super low?
Thanks for the education!
Speakers in general do not have very low distortion. Certainly the weakest link in audio chain. Much research is still needed. Just realize how much distortion reduction was achieved by Purifi Audio recently.
One other thing, no matter what woofers you use, room modes will mess it up. Room treatment, bass traps, diffusors are a must.
Whats a use to have best speakers in terrible room.
One other thing, no matter what woofers you use, room modes will mess it up. Room treatment, bass traps, diffusors are a must.
Whats a use to have best speakers in terrible room.
Good bass can get better if you simply use multiples.
In an simplified / ideal model (point source, in free space), a multitude of LF drivers (and enclosures scaled to match) will have less distortion (or go lower at the same distortion) than a single driver of the same type.
In a real world situation, using a multitude also allows you to:
In an simplified / ideal model (point source, in free space), a multitude of LF drivers (and enclosures scaled to match) will have less distortion (or go lower at the same distortion) than a single driver of the same type.
In a real world situation, using a multitude also allows you to:
- spread out the LF sources to mitigate room modes.
- take advantage of boundary loading, with some of them (a woofer used as a sub, on the floor, will produce more bass at a given distortion level than the exact same woofer used in a stand mounted 2-way).
- use opposed mounting (woofers on opposite sides of a box).
Best bass I ever heard was Linkwitz Orions (dipoles).
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/design_of_loudspeakers.htm
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/design_of_loudspeakers.htm
My commercial SP2(2004) specifies 2nd & 3rd Harmonic Distortion 30 db below 5 w response from 2khz down to 50 hz. They sound accurate to me on Steinway grand tracks. I have a Steinway console in the next room for calibration of ears. I listen at 1/8 to 10 watts usually in my music room even those these speakers can be used at 500 W pink noise.
I back them into a 1" thick plaster wall in a 11 m long room. The room effect has gotten bass response only down 10 db at 30 hz, way above the spec sheet response. Measured in room 2 m away.
I hope to equal this performance in an uglier box with Eminence Deltapro15A woofer, since I've had one pair of Peavey SP2 speakers stolen already. They have too much pawn shop value to be left alone.
I back them into a 1" thick plaster wall in a 11 m long room. The room effect has gotten bass response only down 10 db at 30 hz, way above the spec sheet response. Measured in room 2 m away.
I hope to equal this performance in an uglier box with Eminence Deltapro15A woofer, since I've had one pair of Peavey SP2 speakers stolen already. They have too much pawn shop value to be left alone.
Last edited:
Yeah just add up enough cone area to have enough volume displacement while keeping driver excursion at bay. Now your distortion is minimized nd joy maximized 😀
Thought experiment: If you have a small woofer, very high tech and very low distortion, expensive, but need to make it flap around in order to make some kind of SPL at some low frequency the distortion performance went with it. You'd be much better with bigger woofer, perhaps less costly but four or eight times the cone area. Small speakers just don't cut it simply because small volume displacement no matter what the distortion figure, low frequencies have long wavelength no matter what. I've never heard current high tech drivers like purifi though and it looks to be top notch, perhaps enough for home use. You can estimate what kind of SPL levels you need the system to play and deduce from there how much volume displacement is needed, how much cone area. I'm with 15" and no plans go smaller at the moment.
But, what is good bass? people like distorted bass, thats what they usually hear except at some live concerts with proper capacity. Smooth frequency response is one and the room dominates that with its modes. Dipoles seem to help some but distributed sources seem more logical thing in many regards like hiding subs into furniture. You could keep the small two ways on front and the bass hiding.
Thought experiment: If you have a small woofer, very high tech and very low distortion, expensive, but need to make it flap around in order to make some kind of SPL at some low frequency the distortion performance went with it. You'd be much better with bigger woofer, perhaps less costly but four or eight times the cone area. Small speakers just don't cut it simply because small volume displacement no matter what the distortion figure, low frequencies have long wavelength no matter what. I've never heard current high tech drivers like purifi though and it looks to be top notch, perhaps enough for home use. You can estimate what kind of SPL levels you need the system to play and deduce from there how much volume displacement is needed, how much cone area. I'm with 15" and no plans go smaller at the moment.
But, what is good bass? people like distorted bass, thats what they usually hear except at some live concerts with proper capacity. Smooth frequency response is one and the room dominates that with its modes. Dipoles seem to help some but distributed sources seem more logical thing in many regards like hiding subs into furniture. You could keep the small two ways on front and the bass hiding.
Last edited:
Better bass? Large drivers, sealed enclosures, excess amplifier power.
Vd capability is king. Move a Lot of Air - GENTLY.
Vd capability is king. Move a Lot of Air - GENTLY.
Under what conditions was this determination made? As others have said, large drivers barely moving to get desired Vd is even better. Jim has said that his design was based upon WAF considerations. I don't have that issue so a JBL4355 like design would improve on his but at the cost of being much larger and more expensive.
A single, large driver sounds different (better) than multiple small drivers of the same SD. I'm not convinced it's distortion, but more how it moves the air.
^ I've got no experience on this but lets take quick math example for fun, which supports your observation.
a 15" driver has roughly cone area ~850cm2. One 15" could be replaced by four 6" drivers which would take roughly same area on a baffle. But, a 6" woofer has cone area of ~150cm2 only and four of them add up to ~600cm2. A 15" driver has almost 50% more cone area than four 6" woofers, or contrary one needs at least six 6" woofers to beat a 15" woofer! One can buy guite nice 15" driver with cost of six nice 6" drivers, perhaps even six 15" woofers!
But it all depends on application how to optimize performance to size and cost. After all there is no need to go excessive on this to keep the size and cost at bay. Multiple drivers could be distributed around the room making better performance by averaging out the room modes. If it is a two way speaker system one can't do this though, the woofer(s) need to be beside the tweeter. If it is a three or more way system then why not. Instead of one 15" woofer distribute six 6" woofers around the room and enjoy smoother bass response. Or four 8", or two 12". Want to go excessive, distribute multiple 21" 😀
a 15" driver has roughly cone area ~850cm2. One 15" could be replaced by four 6" drivers which would take roughly same area on a baffle. But, a 6" woofer has cone area of ~150cm2 only and four of them add up to ~600cm2. A 15" driver has almost 50% more cone area than four 6" woofers, or contrary one needs at least six 6" woofers to beat a 15" woofer! One can buy guite nice 15" driver with cost of six nice 6" drivers, perhaps even six 15" woofers!
But it all depends on application how to optimize performance to size and cost. After all there is no need to go excessive on this to keep the size and cost at bay. Multiple drivers could be distributed around the room making better performance by averaging out the room modes. If it is a two way speaker system one can't do this though, the woofer(s) need to be beside the tweeter. If it is a three or more way system then why not. Instead of one 15" woofer distribute six 6" woofers around the room and enjoy smoother bass response. Or four 8", or two 12". Want to go excessive, distribute multiple 21" 😀
Last edited:
Well IMHO the JBL 2216Nd sounds better subjectively than other woofers I have owned. They are very dynamic and with EQ can go down into the low 20's. The "better" dynamics I think can be traced to the negative TCR wire used in the voice coil that reduces VC heating which effects the power compression. Dual VC also helps as far as power handling and reducing power compression.
Rob 🙂
Seems reasonable given both have just about enough cone area that there is little-to-nothing to be gained by going larger when listening to music in an average sized room at standard levels. Perceived sound quality at low frequencies is dominated by the room response with the woofers only being required to play loud and clean enough to preserve high energy low frequency percussive sounds in the direct sound.
Having said that using more cone area with distributed subs can better control the room response and raise sound quality but there is no real need for the woofers in the mains to be larger than 2 x 8" or 12" (or a modern 10" with a large linear displacement). Or the subs for that matter if one uses enough.
From Geddes work it seems that the distortion we measure is more or less meaningless, but that does not mean distortion is not important, just that we aren’t measuring it.
Good bass is certainly doable, but the room…
Multiple woofers, properly placed, careful level & phase adjustment, but the room dominates.
You have to massage the bits into line to get good bass. If you want REALLY GOOD bass, you have to start by designing the room.
dave
Wow! I asked questions of ignorance, attempting to learn, and get a really detailed thread with lots of information. Thanks guys.
As usual, I did not give quite enough information however about what I was fishing for. I have no doubts that four 18in woofers, two per side would make better bass. That's not my point. My point was, with similar-sized drivers, just a completely different brand , how can you get much better Bass?
I think I should have asked, all other things considered such as the room, quality cabinet construction, room treatment, Etc. Being the same; can just switching to a completely different pair of 8 inch drivers for example suddenly tremendously improved the bass, if the drivers you're using already has super low Distortion good Dynamics and good tone?
In other words, is a pair of $300 each woofers necessarily better than a pair of $60 each woofers if those $60 woofers already have performance someone like Jim Holtz claims is about as good as he can get. Jim claimed he didn't see the need to spend anymore, because he didn't know how to get a lot better bass.
I'm sure he meant out of that size cabinet using those sized drivers.
As usual, I did not give quite enough information however about what I was fishing for. I have no doubts that four 18in woofers, two per side would make better bass. That's not my point. My point was, with similar-sized drivers, just a completely different brand , how can you get much better Bass?
I think I should have asked, all other things considered such as the room, quality cabinet construction, room treatment, Etc. Being the same; can just switching to a completely different pair of 8 inch drivers for example suddenly tremendously improved the bass, if the drivers you're using already has super low Distortion good Dynamics and good tone?
In other words, is a pair of $300 each woofers necessarily better than a pair of $60 each woofers if those $60 woofers already have performance someone like Jim Holtz claims is about as good as he can get. Jim claimed he didn't see the need to spend anymore, because he didn't know how to get a lot better bass.
I'm sure he meant out of that size cabinet using those sized drivers.
No, $300 drivers aren’t necessarily better than $60 ones, certainly not for bass. Given a reasonable cone, all boils down to a good motor and suspension design (and execution). There ar lots of woofers with fancy cones and mediocre motor and suspension, which essentially boils down to high distortion at relatively low sound pressure levels. Average steel stamped frame and paper cone types really can excel.
Not necessarily. Once a woofer is big enough to be able to reproduce bass without audible distortion at the required SPL then there is no benefit in going larger.
I think he probably meant what he said. To repeat what I said earlier if the drivers are large enough so that at, say, 85 dB average at the listening position 20 dB peaks in the direct sound are accurately handled then larger drivers will bring no improvement. This occurs around a size of 2 x 8" or 1 x 10-12" woofer/s. It obviously varies a bit with how large the effectively linear displacement may be. If you move up to a 15" woofer then it would need to be of only modest build quality so long as small displacements are effectively linear (low distortion) which aggressively budget drivers may not be whereas a 10" would need to be of good quality in order to have a reasonably large effectively linear displacement. Of course if you want the speaker to be clean at louder than standard levels then you will need larger woofers but not for standard levels at 3-4 m listening distances.
As for different 2 x 8" woofers sounding different then yes because you are around the limit of adequate cone area this is a possibility. However, as others have said, the level of distortion at woofer frequencies have to be pretty large to be audible because our ear/brain is not particularly sensitive to it.
Decades ago I swapped from a Peerless driver to a Volt one and the improvement was a night-and-day difference. The well-known car analogy is: "Speed costs money - how fast do you want to go?".
I must politely disagree with markbakk, but in my experience the difference between a couple of equally-priced drivers at any price level would likely come down to a personal preference, whilst your $60/$300 comparison would be, well, no comparison - particularly in power handling and Vd - again, a night-and-day difference! And don't forget PA drivers - they are hugely better value for money than hyped-up/overpriced 'hifi' ones. Don't be afraid of 18" drivers as a sealed enclosure would only be 50l or so (a couple of cubic feet in god-fearing vintage units... ), and a large cone area barely moving usually sounds considerably better than a small driver flapping around at or beyond Xmax.
The Hans Beekhuyzen method of getting better bass:
Take one speaker and place it at your listening position (facing where you'd been listening). Play music with a lot of plucked bass and crawl along the floor until you find the spot with the best bass.
Take one speaker and place it at your listening position (facing where you'd been listening). Play music with a lot of plucked bass and crawl along the floor until you find the spot with the best bass.
Hi, Flaxxer
As usual, this all comes down to physics. Moving air using the biggest size drivers, with the biggest motor, as quietly as possibly will give you better bass. Of course, this all depends on what an individual needs or wants. The ROOM is a major factor here. Dr. Geddes makes excellent points regarding the quality, placement, and number subwoofers needed for best performance. I used a pair of 18" pair of TC Sounds LMS 5400--82 lbs. each !! per subwoofer ( unfortunately, no longer made ) in a 9.5 cu.ft. sealed cabinet using dual opposed configuration. Each subwoofer is driven by a pair of strapped Crown I-tech 5000HD amplifiers strapped as mono blocks-about 3000 watts per channel using the amplifiers built in DSP, crossover functions, to EQ. the bass flat from 12hz. to 60hz. with 48 db roll off at 60hz. These suboofers sound excellent, give UNBELIEVABLE bass, and near bullet proof. I have yet to see better sub drivers. I realize this is much more than most people need but I will never need to upgrade. The trick, IMHO, is to use the biggest driver possible or multiples there of to get what you want. You can see the subwoofers in this video. I hope this information answers some of your questions
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=meet+joe+and+his+amazing+diy+horn+speakers
Joe
As usual, this all comes down to physics. Moving air using the biggest size drivers, with the biggest motor, as quietly as possibly will give you better bass. Of course, this all depends on what an individual needs or wants. The ROOM is a major factor here. Dr. Geddes makes excellent points regarding the quality, placement, and number subwoofers needed for best performance. I used a pair of 18" pair of TC Sounds LMS 5400--82 lbs. each !! per subwoofer ( unfortunately, no longer made ) in a 9.5 cu.ft. sealed cabinet using dual opposed configuration. Each subwoofer is driven by a pair of strapped Crown I-tech 5000HD amplifiers strapped as mono blocks-about 3000 watts per channel using the amplifiers built in DSP, crossover functions, to EQ. the bass flat from 12hz. to 60hz. with 48 db roll off at 60hz. These suboofers sound excellent, give UNBELIEVABLE bass, and near bullet proof. I have yet to see better sub drivers. I realize this is much more than most people need but I will never need to upgrade. The trick, IMHO, is to use the biggest driver possible or multiples there of to get what you want. You can see the subwoofers in this video. I hope this information answers some of your questions
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=meet+joe+and+his+amazing+diy+horn+speakers
Joe