Hello all - I tested the same speaker in a JBL cabinet, had this cabinet for years, and always liked the sound for such a small package.
When I tested the speaker outside of the cabinet, not great as we all know, then added to cabinet, this little speaker rocks.
Oh yeah, cut out some wood from this cabinet, pressboard, what is it with this ****! Can not compare to solid Maple or other tonewood.
The speaker will not only be in the guitar, it will not be pressboard, it will be 100% solid tonewood. Can you imagine a violin made of pressboard? Ouch!
Compared to the same speaker in the guitar, see dB on PPT, was better that I expected for a small speaker by itself, without a woofer.
The bass was not even close to what I am getting in my guitar, amazing. OK I am going to buy that measurement mic tonight, to see real data.
Hey I trust my ears, but still needed! The five foot long waveguide, with horn at end only, is killing it. I also bought a Bose Waveguide radio finally, can't wait to rip that thing open. Comments welcome! Joe
When I tested the speaker outside of the cabinet, not great as we all know, then added to cabinet, this little speaker rocks.
Oh yeah, cut out some wood from this cabinet, pressboard, what is it with this ****! Can not compare to solid Maple or other tonewood.
The speaker will not only be in the guitar, it will not be pressboard, it will be 100% solid tonewood. Can you imagine a violin made of pressboard? Ouch!
Compared to the same speaker in the guitar, see dB on PPT, was better that I expected for a small speaker by itself, without a woofer.
The bass was not even close to what I am getting in my guitar, amazing. OK I am going to buy that measurement mic tonight, to see real data.
Hey I trust my ears, but still needed! The five foot long waveguide, with horn at end only, is killing it. I also bought a Bose Waveguide radio finally, can't wait to rip that thing open. Comments welcome! Joe
Have you tried filling the cavity both speakers occupy with "polyfil" or some other sound dampening material, to see the effect on the sound?
The metal receptacles that the speaker mounting screws go into look interesting. Maybe you can get another patent on a way to make those elastomeric, as a way to decouple the speaker frame vibrations from the wood. Or perhaps just adding an angled piece between the ends of the magnets, so the speaker pair is a single mechanical chunk, elastomerically coupled to the body via the mounting, might reduce conducted vibration to nothing, while still projecting sound through the horns the same. The speaker pair is driven in phase with one another, I assume.
Thinking at some gain level, it's going to feedback mechanically, which may be desirable for some players, not so desirable for others. Also assuming for it to be the loudest monolithic guitar ever made would be quite a distinguishing characteristic.
The metal receptacles that the speaker mounting screws go into look interesting. Maybe you can get another patent on a way to make those elastomeric, as a way to decouple the speaker frame vibrations from the wood. Or perhaps just adding an angled piece between the ends of the magnets, so the speaker pair is a single mechanical chunk, elastomerically coupled to the body via the mounting, might reduce conducted vibration to nothing, while still projecting sound through the horns the same. The speaker pair is driven in phase with one another, I assume.
Thinking at some gain level, it's going to feedback mechanically, which may be desirable for some players, not so desirable for others. Also assuming for it to be the loudest monolithic guitar ever made would be quite a distinguishing characteristic.
Thanks much for the comments and encouragement JJ. The great thing about "monolithic" guitars is you can make just about any shape you want,
and any internal structure/waveguide/other, just like a sculpture! I will have to try the "polyfil", the speakers I just tested has that inside. Since the speaker cone is of course moving, I think directly mounting to the guitar wood gives a great vibration throughout the guitar, but I can try floating to see how that sounds. Thanks! Joe
and any internal structure/waveguide/other, just like a sculpture! I will have to try the "polyfil", the speakers I just tested has that inside. Since the speaker cone is of course moving, I think directly mounting to the guitar wood gives a great vibration throughout the guitar, but I can try floating to see how that sounds. Thanks! Joe
I tested the "waveguide" in reverse, to hopefully prove it really is a combination of a waveguide with a horn at the end. After all, the horn portion does tapered out over a 12" length. This gives it some impedance matching for sure, but not sure how much. I mounted the speaker from the bell of the horn for fun, to see what would happen. I could not believe it, the sound through the waveguide was almost gone, I mean nowhere close to 125 dB max as measured through the waveguide before. I didn't even think about checking dB, it was so low, was laughable. Art and JJ, am I correct to assume this is serious wave cancelation? I just wanted to try, because if it was not a horn, and just a waveguide/pipe, it would work in either direction, and it clearly did not. Comments welcome and thanks! Joe
Hello all - made some great progress on two necks. I have been watching YouTube videos showing neck and body dovetail work, and assembly by hand,
boy these Luthiers do some good work. It does not look very accurate, but I know good Luthiers make it work. I also know cheap guitars are a disaster
when it comes to setup, straight necks...I guarantee you Taylor does not have this problem, they CNC their necks, and it sure shows when you play one.
Anyway, I still need to cut the dovetail in the body. Still busy at work, but worth the wait. Check out the Bose Waveguide pictures, the damn thing sounds
really good, gets 125 dB at speaker. Comments welcome, thanks! Joe
boy these Luthiers do some good work. It does not look very accurate, but I know good Luthiers make it work. I also know cheap guitars are a disaster
when it comes to setup, straight necks...I guarantee you Taylor does not have this problem, they CNC their necks, and it sure shows when you play one.
Anyway, I still need to cut the dovetail in the body. Still busy at work, but worth the wait. Check out the Bose Waveguide pictures, the damn thing sounds
really good, gets 125 dB at speaker. Comments welcome, thanks! Joe
Joe,
Neck blanks look nice!
Your guitar body enclosure is many times the volume of the little Bose cabinet, not very encouraging if it produces similar output.
As mentioned in posts 118 and 159, SPL drops at 6dB per doubling of distance, measuring "at speaker" is of little utility.
If you measure the frequency response (using REW) of both the Bose port ("waveguide") output and the speaker(s) you could get a better idea of what each contributes.
Art
Agree Art, just wanted to compare speakers to start. dB is 125 max on both speakers, and size/mounting is almost exactly the same. The difference is the Bose system is 50 watts, and my acoustic guitar amp is only 30 watts.
Bose at the end of the waveguide drops to 115 dB (with more power) and mine drops to 120 dB (with less power). Their waveguide is unusual as you can see in the pics. Starts large and gets smaller, and not a consistent taper at all, plus crazy features from below it sticking up everywhere, not horn like in any way. I know mine is not a complete horn, but it is smooth and has a very constant taper at the end like a horn, 17 inches, and there are two, perfectly symmetrical. I think mine sounds better, but I know that is subjective. I know for sure mine delivers better low frequency, you can hear it easily. Yes I will get the REW software and the measurement mic going one of these days! What do you think given the different wattage?
Bose at the end of the waveguide drops to 115 dB (with more power) and mine drops to 120 dB (with less power). Their waveguide is unusual as you can see in the pics. Starts large and gets smaller, and not a consistent taper at all, plus crazy features from below it sticking up everywhere, not horn like in any way. I know mine is not a complete horn, but it is smooth and has a very constant taper at the end like a horn, 17 inches, and there are two, perfectly symmetrical. I think mine sounds better, but I know that is subjective. I know for sure mine delivers better low frequency, you can hear it easily. Yes I will get the REW software and the measurement mic going one of these days! What do you think given the different wattage?
My test tonight was to take the chamber divider off the waveguide/horn section and just put the soundboard on top of the body.
Sounded terrible. Reminds me of so many speaker in guitar designs I see that just cut a hole in the guitar soundboard and add a speaker
(no sympathetic vibration) sounds terrible, or cut a hole in the side of the guitar and add a speaker, also sounds terrible. I wonder why
those never caught on with guitar players or Luthiers, a total joke!
My speakers are rated at 150 Hz low end, and they sound that way without a waveguide/horn, at best. It is like there is no bass player
in the band until I close the waveguide/horns and BAM, bass goes through the roof as I said before. I know 50-70 Hz when I hear it.
How does this happen with a speaker that is only rated to 150 Hz on the low end? How does the waveguide/horn produce these
low frequencies from a 150 Hz low end speaker?
When the waveguide/horns are not covered by the chamber divider even an 1/8" of an inch, the guitar body vibration is almost nothing.
Then I close it, and the entire guitar vibrates big time. I hold it and feel it like I have never felt on an acoustic guitar. I get into a crazy
positions and put my ear on every inch of the guitar body, and it is all booming with vibrations and sound. The plastic waveguide
CD player has almost no vibration on the body. Can not compete with 1/4" thick maple tonewood, not even close.
Comments welcome, let me have it!
Sounded terrible. Reminds me of so many speaker in guitar designs I see that just cut a hole in the guitar soundboard and add a speaker
(no sympathetic vibration) sounds terrible, or cut a hole in the side of the guitar and add a speaker, also sounds terrible. I wonder why
those never caught on with guitar players or Luthiers, a total joke!
My speakers are rated at 150 Hz low end, and they sound that way without a waveguide/horn, at best. It is like there is no bass player
in the band until I close the waveguide/horns and BAM, bass goes through the roof as I said before. I know 50-70 Hz when I hear it.
How does this happen with a speaker that is only rated to 150 Hz on the low end? How does the waveguide/horn produce these
low frequencies from a 150 Hz low end speaker?
When the waveguide/horns are not covered by the chamber divider even an 1/8" of an inch, the guitar body vibration is almost nothing.
Then I close it, and the entire guitar vibrates big time. I hold it and feel it like I have never felt on an acoustic guitar. I get into a crazy
positions and put my ear on every inch of the guitar body, and it is all booming with vibrations and sound. The plastic waveguide
CD player has almost no vibration on the body. Can not compete with 1/4" thick maple tonewood, not even close.
Comments welcome, let me have it!
This could get you started:
https://sciencing.com/open-closed-pipe-physics-differences-resonance-equation-13721570.html
Great info thank you Art, I understand most of it, but not all. I know why this works, but I do not fully understand HOW it works.
I think it is important to understand both, will make one a better product designer. See my attached file, and let me know if this makes sense.
I wish I could see soundwaves, hah! I am trying to visualize the soundwaves as they go through the waveguide, what happens to them based
on product design, and how this affects sound. Thanks! Joe
I think it is important to understand both, will make one a better product designer. See my attached file, and let me know if this makes sense.
I wish I could see soundwaves, hah! I am trying to visualize the soundwaves as they go through the waveguide, what happens to them based
on product design, and how this affects sound. Thanks! Joe
Sometimes people put little "flags" along the path of a waveguide, which "flap" along with the sound pressure waves going through. Obviously, this works for low frequencies best. You'd need a clear top to look through. Perhaps a strobe would allow you to see the modes "standing" there.
Hello JJ - a strobe, wow that would be great if it will work, I will try it, thanks! I am trying to understand how standing waves work
in my waveguide and how they affect sound. I again played another guitar though this unfinished guitar with the waveguides open,
with speakers, no chamber divider covering them, such a small volume and tone difference from just an acoustic guitar. I have done
plenty of testing with waveguides vs. no electronics, obvious difference of course. Now I am doing more testing of the amp and speakers
in the guitar, but with waveguides uncovered, sounds terrible, very little noticeable volume increase, and tone sucks. Really makes
me appreciate what the waveguides are doing!
in my waveguide and how they affect sound. I again played another guitar though this unfinished guitar with the waveguides open,
with speakers, no chamber divider covering them, such a small volume and tone difference from just an acoustic guitar. I have done
plenty of testing with waveguides vs. no electronics, obvious difference of course. Now I am doing more testing of the amp and speakers
in the guitar, but with waveguides uncovered, sounds terrible, very little noticeable volume increase, and tone sucks. Really makes
me appreciate what the waveguides are doing!
So in the history of Gibson guitars I believe the ES335 was an "improvement" to the hollowbody ES330. They extended the neck structure through the whole body to the tail, giving the pickups a large solid piece of wood to mount upon, like any solid guitar. I think this was done to accommodate the higher SPLs guitarists wanted to achieve, without unwanted feedback.
I recall reading an interview years and years ago where Steve Howe was asked if he stuffed his guitars hollow parts to prevent feedback. His answer was that he didnt, remarking "my guitars feedback when I want them to". I believe player control over this aspect would make or break a guitar design.
Versatility is the name of the game. Make sure your new instrument is playable, while at the same time being able to shout out whatever is being played from those horn mouths - without adverse effects like uncontrolled feedback. As I've mentioned, it seems there's plenty of internal solidity in the center structure upon which to mount pickups, be they magnetic or piezo in the saddle - or both.
Personally I feel that including the amplifier inside the guitar is a limiting factor. There's just too many amplifiers / effects some player could choose and if they realize they're stuck with a particular unit / sound for the guitar to even work, that just might be offputting. But then you'd have a corded instrument and it may not be trivial to get both pickup and speaker power running down a single cord with an ordinary feel; i.e. not a transatlantic cable.
I'd also be looking hard at those 3" drivers, for all the different types available in that size. Someone is going to want to run 100W RMS into that pair, without them burning. Of course you do the best you can, until sales fortune allows you to build custom drivers, with metal cones, anodized aluminum wire high temp voice coils that can hit solder temperature and still work. Cant have the speakers blow when some performer is sustaining their note indefinitely, right?
I recall reading an interview years and years ago where Steve Howe was asked if he stuffed his guitars hollow parts to prevent feedback. His answer was that he didnt, remarking "my guitars feedback when I want them to". I believe player control over this aspect would make or break a guitar design.
Versatility is the name of the game. Make sure your new instrument is playable, while at the same time being able to shout out whatever is being played from those horn mouths - without adverse effects like uncontrolled feedback. As I've mentioned, it seems there's plenty of internal solidity in the center structure upon which to mount pickups, be they magnetic or piezo in the saddle - or both.
Personally I feel that including the amplifier inside the guitar is a limiting factor. There's just too many amplifiers / effects some player could choose and if they realize they're stuck with a particular unit / sound for the guitar to even work, that just might be offputting. But then you'd have a corded instrument and it may not be trivial to get both pickup and speaker power running down a single cord with an ordinary feel; i.e. not a transatlantic cable.
I'd also be looking hard at those 3" drivers, for all the different types available in that size. Someone is going to want to run 100W RMS into that pair, without them burning. Of course you do the best you can, until sales fortune allows you to build custom drivers, with metal cones, anodized aluminum wire high temp voice coils that can hit solder temperature and still work. Cant have the speakers blow when some performer is sustaining their note indefinitely, right?
Love it, thank you JJ! I have an H535 which is a Heritage made in the old Gibson Guitar factory in Kalamazoo, pretty much an ES335 with a different
headstock, made by the Gibson employees that did not want to move to Nashville in the eighties, beautiful instrument for blues, jazz, rock...great sound
with lots of ninth chords and solos.
I agree about all the options needed for an Acoustic Waveguide Guitar. This is just a start, plug into another amp, mic the horns...
many ways to approach with different guitar models/sizes. I also confirmed the guitar with and without Waveguide closed (covered)
behaves the same way as an iPhone playing music through the Waveguides, tremendous before and after differences. I forgot to check the dB
playing guitar without Waveguides covered, but my guess is 90 dB because is was not much louder than a regular acoustic guitar at 80-85 dB.
120 dB with closed at horns. My new patent issue has a mic, under saddle piezo pickup, contact transducers, and under string pickups included,
so every type and every combination is covered. The mic just feeds back too much, and is not so much better as I thought before.
The under saddle piezo, if a good one, like the Fishman Presys+ I am using. It sounds great, IF the amp master/gain/tone/chorus (none) and pickup tone/brilliance/notch are set just right, at least for me anyway, sounds great. I also agree about controlling feedback, not hard to do if you
keep your hand ready to mute strings as needed. Some very slight feedback helps a drop D sixth string sustain like crazy when playing
a song in the key of D, almost like adding bass guitar (not quite, but great lows).
A guy I contacted was cited on my Patent for a neck through body guitar patent, which reminded me of the ES335. He was going to do all
the CNC work, but it just did not happen, so I did it myself, which I am very happy that I did now. I am controlling everything.
I am not a control freak, but there are benefits to knowing exactly how to design and build the guitar yourself. After I assemble this,
I hope to call myself a Luthier some day way off, never dreamed that could happen. I am not there yet, have many more mistakes to make first!
ANOTHER reason this is taking so damn long. Happiness lies not in the victory, but in the struggle.
I am looking for other amp and driver options also, always looking to improve, constant process. BTW have you ever seen
guitars from Electrophonic Innovations. They are doing amps and speakers inside electric guitars. No waveguides or horns,
but they look pretty cool, need to buy two and rip one apart. They are selling and getting great reviews, very interesting. Thanks! Joe
headstock, made by the Gibson employees that did not want to move to Nashville in the eighties, beautiful instrument for blues, jazz, rock...great sound
with lots of ninth chords and solos.
I agree about all the options needed for an Acoustic Waveguide Guitar. This is just a start, plug into another amp, mic the horns...
many ways to approach with different guitar models/sizes. I also confirmed the guitar with and without Waveguide closed (covered)
behaves the same way as an iPhone playing music through the Waveguides, tremendous before and after differences. I forgot to check the dB
playing guitar without Waveguides covered, but my guess is 90 dB because is was not much louder than a regular acoustic guitar at 80-85 dB.
120 dB with closed at horns. My new patent issue has a mic, under saddle piezo pickup, contact transducers, and under string pickups included,
so every type and every combination is covered. The mic just feeds back too much, and is not so much better as I thought before.
The under saddle piezo, if a good one, like the Fishman Presys+ I am using. It sounds great, IF the amp master/gain/tone/chorus (none) and pickup tone/brilliance/notch are set just right, at least for me anyway, sounds great. I also agree about controlling feedback, not hard to do if you
keep your hand ready to mute strings as needed. Some very slight feedback helps a drop D sixth string sustain like crazy when playing
a song in the key of D, almost like adding bass guitar (not quite, but great lows).
A guy I contacted was cited on my Patent for a neck through body guitar patent, which reminded me of the ES335. He was going to do all
the CNC work, but it just did not happen, so I did it myself, which I am very happy that I did now. I am controlling everything.
I am not a control freak, but there are benefits to knowing exactly how to design and build the guitar yourself. After I assemble this,
I hope to call myself a Luthier some day way off, never dreamed that could happen. I am not there yet, have many more mistakes to make first!
ANOTHER reason this is taking so damn long. Happiness lies not in the victory, but in the struggle.
I am looking for other amp and driver options also, always looking to improve, constant process. BTW have you ever seen
guitars from Electrophonic Innovations. They are doing amps and speakers inside electric guitars. No waveguides or horns,
but they look pretty cool, need to buy two and rip one apart. They are selling and getting great reviews, very interesting. Thanks! Joe
This guitar is such a beast with 1/4" hard maple. I can stand on it without any trouble, try that with another acoustic guitar!
Not the soundboard of course, but the chamber divider that closes the Waveguide/ Horn. This must be completely closed,
like a speaker cabinet. I can actually feel the vibrations through my legs, xxxx amazing. This is a sonic machine!
Not the soundboard of course, but the chamber divider that closes the Waveguide/ Horn. This must be completely closed,
like a speaker cabinet. I can actually feel the vibrations through my legs, xxxx amazing. This is a sonic machine!
That picture, regardless of the feet in it, has me completely lost as to how your invention is constructed. I see the two speakers and I assume below the board you're standing on, is on top of the two waveguide shapes - with a second board on the bottom / back of the guitar. What's the chamber, guitar shaped "bowl" that you're standing in? Why is there a cutout exposing the back chamber of the speaker "cabinet" into the larger chamber your feet are in?
I was guessing the speaker cabinet or enclosure would be completely closed and sealed, with only the cone fronts exposed to the waveguides. I thought the board you're standing on would be the top of the guitar; what the fretboard, bridge and pickups mount to. If the top mounts onto the edge of the "bowl" you're standing in, now I understand how you're getting all that feedback - it's coming from the sound pressure emitted through the port to the backside of the speakers, right?
Guess you could make a "solid guitar" version as well, with the top glued onto the waveguides and covering the speaker chamber. As it would be the board you're standing on, sans the port to the speakers. (Perhaps that port could emit out the back of that version of your guitar, if the small cabinet volume is too restrictive for much bass). It would certainly handle more power, closed and sealed, giving the speakers a firm air pocket to push against.
Cant wait to see the whole instrument, assembled and finished in sunburst!