You could do that. No reason it wouldn't work for short runs, but the connections are a bit messy. The StudioHub adapters have that covered, though. Https://studiohub.com/adapters/. (See the P/N ADAPT-RCAM). It's neat, fast, and when you add up the cost of good connectors and your time, it's affordable too.
Um...well that statement is far too general to be correct. State the wire size and type, total run, and impedances of the devices, and you can figure it out. But it's not a binary condition, it varies, so the question is "how much", or to put it another way, "Can I ignore it?"
As Cyril Bateman found the time between breaking into oscillation and magic smoke is not really long enough
Depends if you are talking pro audio vs domestic high end frippery. I should note I don't have a foot in either camp over this, just an interesting bit of technical discussion that might* make a difference (and is cheap and easy to mess with at home)
Easy to fix for a DIY type. AES48 has been around 17 years so unless you are playing with older stuff you shouldn't have a problem. There is also the fact that, for home audio it's (IMO) perfectly acceptable to connect the shield only at one end (Whitlock shows a cap to ground at the receiving end).
*Certainly more likely to make a difference than cables that cost more than I paid for my car!
If it smokes, you've found the problem. Bad design. Sorry to take such a hard line, but speakers, common wires...that IS the environment any amp MUST work in. If the common stuff causes it to smoke, perhaps it's deserved. Working around high frequency transmission line effects to save the amp from oscillating just seems like the ultimate band-aid covering a big underlying sore.
I've yet to actually see this happen though..an amp smoked by oscillation just driving speakers via garden-variety cable. Perhaps I just keep company with well designed amps.
You've probably avoided the high end*. Naim Amplifiers are well known for it as they lack an output network to prevent this. The interesting question is, does it make any difference in a well behaved amplifier?
*There are of course unflappable high end amplifiers. I think the bigger pass labs monoblocks can double as welders...
RJ-45 break out boxes are fairly cheap and everyone has a few CAT5 cables lying around. Wouldn't be hard for people to try making interconnects for an unscientific larf.
*There are of course unflappable high end amplifiers. I think the bigger pass labs monoblocks can double as welders...
RJ-45 break out boxes are fairly cheap and everyone has a few CAT5 cables lying around. Wouldn't be hard for people to try making interconnects for an unscientific larf.
I have avoided the extreme high end, yes.
One of the many reasons I've avoided them. Though, to be honest, thinking back to the 1970s, there were amplifiers made for professional use that would oscillate with long cables attached, like you'd find running from a projection booth to screen speakers. We just replaced them with better amps. Then the manufacturer corrected the problem. They're still making amps, the new ones don't oscillate.
He didn't test that.
He didn't but a few people have. Given how people angst over single capacitor swaps I am intrigued why more haven't.
Seems likely more people haven't tried what Hans Polak did because (1) they won't bother to read enough of the thread I linked to, and (2) it requires measurements and calculations. Unfortunately people who are equipped to measure and comfortable with calculations appear to be overconfident there is no point in bothering. IIRC the few people who did try it with Hans' help reported non-subtle changes.
To expand the scope just a bit: I've been happily running my Gustard A18 DAC (AK4499) for a year and a half, using the supplied USB A-B cable.
Out of curiosity, I recently ordered an Aliexpress Hi End 5u 24K Au 4N 99.99 OFC Cu blabla for $25.
I wasn't expecting much, but still I braced myself for a fight because I know from experience differences between cables are not always easy to assess. Wrong! The diff are immediately audible: the original battery charger grade cable has more pronounced, possibly more refined highs, kinda like my ESL57, and the Ali has much fuller mids, which is closer to my Jecklin (RIP) Float electrostatic headphones.
Which is better? I don't know. The Ali cable has been in my system for a while now, but this because I'm too lazy to swap cables.
Out of curiosity, I recently ordered an Aliexpress Hi End 5u 24K Au 4N 99.99 OFC Cu blabla for $25.
I wasn't expecting much, but still I braced myself for a fight because I know from experience differences between cables are not always easy to assess. Wrong! The diff are immediately audible: the original battery charger grade cable has more pronounced, possibly more refined highs, kinda like my ESL57, and the Ali has much fuller mids, which is closer to my Jecklin (RIP) Float electrostatic headphones.
Which is better? I don't know. The Ali cable has been in my system for a while now, but this because I'm too lazy to swap cables.
Out of curiosity? If that's what you call cluelessness....
A 'USB 3.0' cable made of Canare Star-Quad microphone cable? Oh dear...
A 'USB 3.0' cable made of Canare Star-Quad microphone cable? Oh dear...
Another clear case of expectations bias!
How experienced audiophiles can discuss sound of cable carrying digital signal is beyond my comprehension.
For a DAC cable to change sound, digital signal content should be changed or resampled. That’s incredible feat for a dumb copper wire while there are error correcting protocols used on USB bus.
USB cables carry +5v and ground in addition to 2-signal wires. A problem that has been seen before is that RFI/EMI can be conducted from the computer ground into a dac. From there it can find its way into analog audio circuitry such as the output stage. For that reason some USB cables are fitted with ferrites. Some USB boards are galvanically isolated and run on clean +5v power from the dac end.
The situation gets more complicated when a dac, or at least some of its USB circuitry, is powered from USB +5v power. IIRC it was KSTR who measured different artifacts at a USB powered dac's audio output depending on where the digital audio data was stored on the computer. A spinning disk drive modulated the computer power and thus the USB +5v more than if the digital audio file was stored on a memory stick.
Given the foregoing, perhaps the cables varied in their performance at frequencies where RFI/EMI was present?
Expectation bias was on your part that such a thing could not ever happen?
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Thanks Mark, you beat me to it. 🙂
It's a well known fact the USB cables have a higher than usual sensitivity to noise, e.g. the Murata paper, even though in my case, the DAC has its own power supplies. What really surprises me is the effects of the sensitivity on the voicing of the system. I love snake oil.
It's a well known fact the USB cables have a higher than usual sensitivity to noise, e.g. the Murata paper, even though in my case, the DAC has its own power supplies. What really surprises me is the effects of the sensitivity on the voicing of the system. I love snake oil.
An interesting history of "Snake Oil"...
"Among the items the Chinese railroad workers brought with them to the States were various medicines — including snake oil. Made from the oil of the Chinese water snake, which is rich in the omega-3 acids that help reduce inflammation, snake oil in its original form really was effective, especially when used to treat arthritis and bursitis. The workers would rub the oil, used for centuries in China, on their joints after a long hard day at work. The story goes that the Chinese workers began sharing the oil with some American counterparts, who marveled at the effects."
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/26/215761377/a-history-of-snake-oil-salesmen
"Among the items the Chinese railroad workers brought with them to the States were various medicines — including snake oil. Made from the oil of the Chinese water snake, which is rich in the omega-3 acids that help reduce inflammation, snake oil in its original form really was effective, especially when used to treat arthritis and bursitis. The workers would rub the oil, used for centuries in China, on their joints after a long hard day at work. The story goes that the Chinese workers began sharing the oil with some American counterparts, who marveled at the effects."
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/26/215761377/a-history-of-snake-oil-salesmen
Markw4, you present a case on “what evils could happen if ..”.
Any decent DAC has its own PS or has a separate input for 5V supply, so USB cable carries only digital signal.
I don’t always approve ASR approach to sound evaluation, but must agree with them on some conclusions that are not pure subjective impressions or speculations.
Nordost USB magical USB cable review
Any decent DAC has its own PS or has a separate input for 5V supply, so USB cable carries only digital signal.
I don’t always approve ASR approach to sound evaluation, but must agree with them on some conclusions that are not pure subjective impressions or speculations.
Nordost USB magical USB cable review
The computer/internet industry sends 60+ Mbps down twisted solid copper telephone wires to our homes, and in excess of 200Tbps through thousands of miles of undersea optical fibres. It's just as well we don't trust these for important matters, like banking, defence, and the stock market - if digital signal transmission of encoded audio is so very sensitive to different types of 1m long interconnects and introduces 'immediately audible' effects, then the world wide web really has no hope... 😉
Copper? you luck sod. we generally have Aluminium round here and it got about 1Mbps until I gave up and put fibre in. Don't forget that TCP/IP has retries and audio generally doesn't so it is a different application. However the number of errors per second required to be audible is probably quite high.
It is also well known that D+ and D- should be routed as a 90 ohm differential pair, on the PCB and within the USB cable. But who cares, lets just use Canare Star-Quad microphone cable instead of proper USB cable, because who cares about eye-diagrams, reflections and such when you can have gold plated plugs and fancy looking sleeving. A new level of ignorance when it comes to 'audiophile' cable BS.
If the sound is different with a different cable then the cause may not be known for certain. If you hear it then its obviously real and there is some physical cause. If someone else hears it then they are hallucinating? If so, then maybe it was you hallucinating in the first instance and someone hearing an obvious physical effect. Of course you never hallucinate, only other people do.