Hello there,
after reading for months i decided to make my self finally an account, because now its time and i need ur support.
i am 22 years old, computer science student from germany. Until now i have always build either kits or subwoofers calculated with winisd. i have a umik1 for measuring
I am planning to build a 3 way floorstanding/ big standmount 3-way.
target specification:
-fully active
-should work without subs until 90dB(one preset with and one without sub)
i already bought/have:
subs:
2x2 mivoc aw3000 in 40l cb impuls compensated with sure dsp, can produce 30-80Hz +-2dB at 100dB
new speaker:
2xhypex fa123
2xkef sp1753 with flare
I am Planning to crossover at 350-400Hz and 2600-2900Hz
Woofer deaprtment should be smaller then 70l
Id like to stay below 28cm width and 40cm depth
I have yet not decided on woofer configuration, budget should not exceed 500€ for both speakers,
i thought about using subwoofers because i plan to cross quite low but i have never used subwoofers above 120Hz before is this a good idea?
1.
my first thought was to use 4x sb17nrx2c35-4 for each speaker to build somethink like a kef r11 but closed
~430€
Vituixcad(qtc=0,707, closed):
40l fb 69,9Hz
+headroom for eq
+with subwoofer should be possible to produce 110db >80Hz
-i dont user their mids at all(kind of a waste
)
1.1 same drivers but woofers impuls compensated like blade but in a floorstanding speaker with big baffle roundover at the front
+really like this idea
-i dont know if this approach even works in my room/ in general
-how do i simulate this kind of approach?
2.
use 2x dayton rs225-8
~380€
Vituixcad(qtc=0,707, closed):
44,3l fb 53,5Hz
+seems like a great performer
+good price
-i dont know if id like to look of it
3.
use 1 sb satori wo24p-8
~370€
Vituixcad(qtc=0,707, closed):
34,2l fb 46,4Hz
+seems like a very good driver
-bigger then everything else
-low max spl
-expensive
4.
maybe 2x visaton gf200in cb....
tiw200 a bit big but should work in a smaller box with eq / linkwitz transform
as u can read there is way to much posibilitys in woofer department and i cant deciede what to do and i find more woofers every day like wavecore, seas....
Can u tell me if my idea/plan with closed woofer is a good idea and which one u would chose?
Kef looks quite nice in room nearfield measurment and vituixcad with basic crossover between ht and mt
after reading for months i decided to make my self finally an account, because now its time and i need ur support.
i am 22 years old, computer science student from germany. Until now i have always build either kits or subwoofers calculated with winisd. i have a umik1 for measuring
I am planning to build a 3 way floorstanding/ big standmount 3-way.
target specification:
-fully active
-should work without subs until 90dB(one preset with and one without sub)
i already bought/have:
subs:
2x2 mivoc aw3000 in 40l cb impuls compensated with sure dsp, can produce 30-80Hz +-2dB at 100dB
new speaker:
2xhypex fa123
2xkef sp1753 with flare
I am Planning to crossover at 350-400Hz and 2600-2900Hz
Woofer deaprtment should be smaller then 70l
Id like to stay below 28cm width and 40cm depth
I have yet not decided on woofer configuration, budget should not exceed 500€ for both speakers,
i thought about using subwoofers because i plan to cross quite low but i have never used subwoofers above 120Hz before is this a good idea?
1.
my first thought was to use 4x sb17nrx2c35-4 for each speaker to build somethink like a kef r11 but closed
~430€
Vituixcad(qtc=0,707, closed):
40l fb 69,9Hz
+headroom for eq
+with subwoofer should be possible to produce 110db >80Hz
-i dont user their mids at all(kind of a waste
)1.1 same drivers but woofers impuls compensated like blade but in a floorstanding speaker with big baffle roundover at the front
+really like this idea
-i dont know if this approach even works in my room/ in general
-how do i simulate this kind of approach?
2.
use 2x dayton rs225-8
~380€
Vituixcad(qtc=0,707, closed):
44,3l fb 53,5Hz
+seems like a great performer
+good price
-i dont know if id like to look of it
3.
use 1 sb satori wo24p-8
~370€
Vituixcad(qtc=0,707, closed):
34,2l fb 46,4Hz
+seems like a very good driver
-bigger then everything else
-low max spl
-expensive
4.
maybe 2x visaton gf200in cb....
tiw200 a bit big but should work in a smaller box with eq / linkwitz transform
as u can read there is way to much posibilitys in woofer department and i cant deciede what to do and i find more woofers every day like wavecore, seas....
Can u tell me if my idea/plan with closed woofer is a good idea and which one u would chose?
Kef looks quite nice in room nearfield measurment and vituixcad with basic crossover between ht and mt
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Our member Zvu is working on a similar system: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-r-series-dual-concentric.29383/
MrSticha has one on the go too using SB23MFCL45 drivers
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...end-other-uniq-adventures.377221/post-6953636
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...end-other-uniq-adventures.377221/post-6953636
I know that one but he used the exklusive line from oaudio which isn't available anymore
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thx for the input, looks quite similar but probably crossed lower, because q100 can do full range and I have the kef one which only does midrange and no low end, I will read the full thread now
Having done two 3-way projects with FA123, other with coaxial...
Don't spend too much time with simulations! Closed box as a tower is excellent base, but you must decice basics - narrow or wide and /1/2/4 woofers? Crossing around 3-400 Hz is very wise and gives you all the possibilities with shape and drivers! The extension waveguide around coaxial suggest wide flat baffe choice to me... but does that fit in your room?
My project with coax https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/seas-mr18-3-way.322839/
Don't spend too much time with simulations! Closed box as a tower is excellent base, but you must decice basics - narrow or wide and /1/2/4 woofers? Crossing around 3-400 Hz is very wise and gives you all the possibilities with shape and drivers! The extension waveguide around coaxial suggest wide flat baffe choice to me... but does that fit in your room?
My project with coax https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/seas-mr18-3-way.322839/
I agree with Juha,
If you haven’t already got the drivers, I would work backwards.
What form factor do you want? Max width and depth, height etc. then use Speakerboxlite to make a shortlist of drivers you can procure, that works in your cabinet.
How big is your room? What music do you like to play?
If you plan to use your subwoofers don’t forget that you’re essentially now building a 4 way system and integrating for music with a crossover at 40-120Hz is not a trivial task.
for Home-theatre just slap it on the LFE channel and be done with it.
If you haven’t already got the drivers, I would work backwards.
What form factor do you want? Max width and depth, height etc. then use Speakerboxlite to make a shortlist of drivers you can procure, that works in your cabinet.
How big is your room? What music do you like to play?
If you plan to use your subwoofers don’t forget that you’re essentially now building a 4 way system and integrating for music with a crossover at 40-120Hz is not a trivial task.
for Home-theatre just slap it on the LFE channel and be done with it.
Well I have the subs sometimes I have my 5 minutes where I really need that high spl so I want them to be part of the system in on preset but normally I won't exceed 90dB so they should be fine without subs.
My hole thinking process was done in reverser engineering, I know the space and and mt, ht was set so I "only" had to chose the woofers.
my room is 6x4m the speakers will be centered on the long wall, 2,5-3m apart
I can live with max. 28 wide, and 40cm depth and hight I don't really care but smaller= better because they will be lighter, easier to build, move etc.
As u can see I don't really have much space behind the speakers so I thought closed would be good here
here is a concept for the 1.1 variant, any comments on that concept, I really liked my subs after converting them to impulse compensation by doubling the woofers in each case
My hole thinking process was done in reverser engineering, I know the space and and mt, ht was set so I "only" had to chose the woofers.
my room is 6x4m the speakers will be centered on the long wall, 2,5-3m apart
I can live with max. 28 wide, and 40cm depth and hight I don't really care but smaller= better because they will be lighter, easier to build, move etc.
As u can see I don't really have much space behind the speakers so I thought closed would be good here
here is a concept for the 1.1 variant, any comments on that concept, I really liked my subs after converting them to impulse compensation by doubling the woofers in each case
Attachments
epic orchestra like movie music:
like "my name is Barbossa"
and edm, generally punchy/hard hitting "epic" from classic to metal I really play all kinds of songs not a specific genre id say
Ok, my suggestion is to put coax on top and woofers low-mid height on sidewalls. With closed box and dsp you easily get low distortion down to 30Hz (lowest room mode boost will give you a happy surprise!) Make mid box asymmetric to minimize internal modes! Two 8-10" woofers on opposing sides will be enough and work well in a moderate volume box.
Center speaker with same KEF mid and 2 smaller woofers with same xo topology will give you superlative HT sound! C is mainly for speech, so it doesn't have to have so low distortion in bass, but same xo topology is needed to get clarity and imaging to work.
Center speaker with same KEF mid and 2 smaller woofers with same xo topology will give you superlative HT sound! C is mainly for speech, so it doesn't have to have so low distortion in bass, but same xo topology is needed to get clarity and imaging to work.
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One thing: why would you go for one package, i.e. a tower type enclosure? You will have a hard time to obtain optimal room integration of mid/high plus subs/bass simultaneously with the coaxials and the subs in one package. Separate and you can shift the subs wherever they perform best in-room.
Like that?
the woofers should represent size of 10 inch Dayton dsa270
made the edges blue to be more visible for u.
coax center is now at 1,075m same hight as my klipsch rp600 tweeter, woofers are at exactly middle hight, I thing I should move them a bit up or down so the distance between bottom and top is not equal.
u mean not square? I have just done that for prototype because I only had to cut out 4 times the same size
maybe I can use a pvc pipe?
or is it ok to build rectangle box inside?
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i plan to programm one preset where subs are added with an 80Hz Crossover, so the hypex have a 80Hz cut and so does my subs dsp.
But I want the speakers to be a complete package WITHOUT them subs, because I ll probably move away somedays from my no Neighbors, no Limit Listening space I currently have, so the subs will go away.
i don't like the idea of building a active, hopefully long time satisafying, 3 way which isn't able to produce low frequencies without subs so I build with 2x8 in mind, and they just need volume
Let me be short here. Read some more on multi sub approach (Toole, Geddes). It is a better way to deal with room acoustics most of the time.
You can make the mid box trapezoid, and and a vertical divider brace (piece of board)behind the magnet.. Avoid same width and height! Stuffing naturally, and some carpet lining on walls!
Obviously you don't show braces, but will have them! Woofer height perhaps 1/3 - 2/5 height (not too near middle or end) Perhaps a brace also between opposed drivers' magnets, to maximize force cancellation in order to minimize sidewall resonance. Stuffing loosely in the middle height of the box, no need for lining the walls because of long wavelengths in the woofer cab.
Lots of practical tips here http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/tips.htm
ps. two fullrange floorstanders can be part of multisub system. But how to get added subs to integrate... there is no perfect solution, it needs lots of testing with crossovers and delays. I'd start with first order lowpass for extra subs. KEF midwoofers don't like to be driven even near 100Hz highpass, so anyway you must make main speakers 3-way. I'm pretty sure you don't need a sub with large 3-ways, but the old sub can be optional extra in AVR's LFE channel when wanted. With movie effects, xo and timing are not so critical, but to counteract room modes you need more effort.
Todd Welti and Earl Geddes papers about multisub are worth reading
https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/papers.aspx
http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/two-great-articles-on-multiple.html
https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
Obviously you don't show braces, but will have them! Woofer height perhaps 1/3 - 2/5 height (not too near middle or end) Perhaps a brace also between opposed drivers' magnets, to maximize force cancellation in order to minimize sidewall resonance. Stuffing loosely in the middle height of the box, no need for lining the walls because of long wavelengths in the woofer cab.
Lots of practical tips here http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/tips.htm
ps. two fullrange floorstanders can be part of multisub system. But how to get added subs to integrate... there is no perfect solution, it needs lots of testing with crossovers and delays. I'd start with first order lowpass for extra subs. KEF midwoofers don't like to be driven even near 100Hz highpass, so anyway you must make main speakers 3-way. I'm pretty sure you don't need a sub with large 3-ways, but the old sub can be optional extra in AVR's LFE channel when wanted. With movie effects, xo and timing are not so critical, but to counteract room modes you need more effort.
Todd Welti and Earl Geddes papers about multisub are worth reading
https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/papers.aspx
http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/two-great-articles-on-multiple.html
https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
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Ditto on that skills and approach!
Midrange enclosures also can be designed small enough to keep most of the resonances out of the passband. It’s not like you need the volume when crossing at 300Hz.