That's a great point. Is the hysteresis associated distortion discernible with tools like an Audio Precision?
yes, hysteresis shows up as odd order harmonic distortion when using sine waves. A telltale sign is that the odd order distortion ratio only changes slowly with the drive level. The complex memory behaviour is only revealed with more complex signals (like music).
Using an ultra low distortion amp it’s easily measured how just a nickel plated washer around a banana plug l elevates the the distortion. Resistors with magnetic end caps adds easily measured levels. We routinely sweep the amp to speaker path with a small neo magnet
And what the h*ck does hysteresis in magnetic components have ANYTHING to do with behaviour of a "single crystal" copper wire vs. a regular one?
You guys clearly are VERY bored and have A LOT of empty time in
your hands, so WASTE it all over the place.
Why don´t you bet on exciting snail races or argue about the shape of clouds?
Just as useless, just as exciting to fill an empty day.
You guys clearly are VERY bored and have A LOT of empty time in
your hands, so WASTE it all over the place.
Why don´t you bet on exciting snail races or argue about the shape of clouds?
Just as useless, just as exciting to fill an empty day.
Isn't it about careful and thorough understanding and minimization of possible error sources, masking effects, etc., as a part of good lab technique when investigating other potentially small effects?
Member
Joined 2006
The topic of this thread was kinda already fully exploited back in the 80s 😊.. look at AudioQuest back in 1987, the year they introduced the FPC (Functionally Perfect Copper) with a single grain thats over 700 feet long!!
See more information from this quite educational article in 2006 by Audioquest: Cable Design Theory here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wQFnoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3siU7Pco2kQonGSrkbQsAs
See more information from this quite educational article in 2006 by Audioquest: Cable Design Theory here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wQFnoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3siU7Pco2kQonGSrkbQsAs
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The topic became clear to me when I ran signal thru wire, fruit, vegetables and mud. Most people could not tell the difference.
Actually "most people" were unwilling to even try the test. Kudos to those who did. Since then - I cast a jaded eye on any cable claims.
Actually "most people" were unwilling to even try the test. Kudos to those who did. Since then - I cast a jaded eye on any cable claims.
Thanks again! The 'complex memory behaviour' was the specific phenomena in mind in my poorly framed question.
Thanks regarding magnetics in the signal path too, that's fascinating - carefully phrasing - correlation with many reported listener impressions. Presumably ferrite beads in the signal path display the same issues.
@Pano, As with hearing hysteresis distortion, not everyone may hear cable effects (at least not without training), and audibility may depend on other conditions too (perhaps recording quality could be one factor). IMHO the Purifi viewpoint on distortion as expressed by Lars makes good sense.
@rdf, IME ferrite beads can produce audible effects that some people hear, while other people do not. Also IME have found so far that can apply to the signal path, power supplies, and clock oscillator power.
@rdf, IME ferrite beads can produce audible effects that some people hear, while other people do not. Also IME have found so far that can apply to the signal path, power supplies, and clock oscillator power.
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Magnetic effects in high power amplifiers are well known; one good reason why an ultra low distortion power amplifier cannot be placed in a ferrous enclosure (don't ask how I figured this out). The same with ferrites, beads in the signal path have a virtually zero effect (much less audible). As of memory distortions, these are easily measurable, a classic example are thermal distortions, illustrated by Self in his book.
I find uber funny that people are concerned with hysteresis effects and ferrite beads in solid state amplifiers, while in vacuum state amplifiers, full of iron power transformers and chockes, nobody seems to care about.
But so many do make that claim. And how many cable sellers or fans say "you might be able to hear a slight difference"?
I chose high quality recordings, but like any tests, people will complain that they can't tell on that kind of music or some other excuse. Hand waving is very popular 😉 Cables are easy to swap and easy to understand. That makes them a great target for audiophilia nervosa.
Its is slight in an overall sense. However, when people learn to hear the effects it can seem much more significant.
Think of someone's face you know well. They probably have two eyes, a nose, mouth, etc. To some non-human creature we may all look pretty much the same except for maybe some slight differences. However, we can recognize faces, recognize subtle emotions in the wrinkles around the eyes, etc. We can tell if a smile is sincere or creepy. So, it that sort of perception only slight or is it very significant?
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It didn't escape notice but those two specific devices in a power supply application are usually followed by relative large capacitive shunts to ground. Plate and grid chokes and output transformers are completely different stories. Likewise tube pins. Thanks too for the note on ferrites. Presumably the trick is reserving use to where the dynamic current passing through them is largely minimized.
Like many things the hobby has a bipolar perspective on magnetic components. Sometimes it's knowledge common and conventional. At other times it's wizardry, alchemy and the new hunt for the ether. Never boring.
IMHO Audioquest was probably trying to figure out cables and kinda achieved some partial practical understanding. Yet seems like they went down some rabbit holes too. Will stop here for now.
Audio signal transformers have a sound, to me at least. Different iron compounds, different construction, etc., can make the best of them tolerable. Others I personally wouldn't use because of their sound.
I think they realised it was better to hire Psychologists to help make people think there were hearing differences. Hence their audio show demos where they tell you what you will hear when the cable is changed...