Correct, I own them but they are not mounted in a cabinet, they are still in kit condition, I need to assemble the toroidal transformers so they are complete.
Hi,
It took a bit longer than anticipated but here is my 'art'.
This is three possible configurations, others could be thoughts as well as the gear used that could be different equivalent reference, those are just example.
It include the physical units ( objects) used and the way they are connected together. The connections include audio signal path ( digital and analog) and computer related ones.
I've ommited powercord connections to your electric installation but you have to check total power consumption and if you do not need a dedicated 110/240v line installed (i don't know which standard is used in Brasil 110v/60hz or 240v/50hz). It can really help to be isolated from the house utility supply where motors and other smps non well protected pollute the supply line.
So computer related type:
Usb3. What i ve seen of recent unit is that it works flawlessly multichannel and high frequency. The new generations of medium priced converters have had same stepup in quality than entry level ones: they sound awfully close to my precious Lake which have 'state of the art' 15years old converters.
So to connect a soundcard or to have an editor to program your physical unit ( the minidsp hardware is programed thanks to a software running on pc. Usb doesn't carry audio in the case only configuration parameters and settings).
Digital audio:
There is a number of audio digital data transfer type and protocol. I presented only the 'older' ones usually present on most gear used the past 30years.
The future is network protocol focused but no need for this in your case now. If this approach please you and you want to pushes things then maybe it could be interesting. Not for a pair of stereo loudspeaker ( even 4 ways).
So here are the 3 main STEREO format used:
_AES/EBU
_SPdif
_Toslink
Aes/Ebu and SPdif are relatives ( they are based on same principle and can communicate between each others with an adaptater if needed). They use wire looking like either typical rca audio interconnect ( SPdif) or typical mic cable with XLR connectors ( AES/EBU). In fact they are not supposed to be typical analog audio cable but digital dedicated ones. Like that one for SPdif ( w3351/2895/2546/2964):
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/video/subminiature_miniature/
Or that one for AES/EBU:
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/dig_interface/aes_ebu/
Toslink is different in that it doesn't use wire/cable but optical fiber.
The connector looks like that: https://images.app.goo.gl/anYJ7BFFZ2yMWP6g7
One connection carries 2 chanels either input or output.
It have 2 great advantage over the wires:
_they are visually inobstrusive ( small and easy to hide)
_ if this is good quality fiber there is no way the signal can be polluted by any electro mechanical radiation, radiofrequence or whatever. It solves the issues of groundloops ( hum, buzz, noise) as each element within a chain is physically isolated from the other.
Some people say it might be more prone to 'jitter' ( a digital clock related issue) but my experience with pro gear is if seriously implemented i've never been able to distinguish AES/EBU, SPdit, TOslink (or ADAT which is another optical protocol used in proworld, using same physical connectors as Toslink but able to carry up to 8 channels).
I recommend this optical protocol when using computer/soundcard/dsp if possible. It really lower the headache if groundloops are anticipated.
The audio interconnects:
This:
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/snake/
Or this :
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/microphone/quality_balanced/
Or if in an area exposed to high EMF/RFI ( Electro Magnetic Field / Radio Frequence Interference) this:
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/microphone/quad/
For microphone to interface cable and soundcard/dsp analog out to the amplifiers.
If your amplifiers are into a 19" rack trolley ( as well as dsp and maybe computer) you can use multipairs ( 'snakes'). Less cable= cleaner.
For amplifier to loudspeaker cable i use this:
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/conventional_configuration/
W3104 for low
W2972 for mid and high ( i tried W2921 but no difference with 2972 to me).
Of course you'll have to build these cables but it is an easy job with the adapted connectors ( Neutirk's Speakon for loudspeaker cable, Neutrik XLR or RCA connectors. No gold contact! Use the silver regular one they sound better and are almost infinite life.
I'm a Mogami guy, but there is Canare, Belden, Gotham Audio,... brands which are professional choice too. There is different sound between them if it satisfy your wish to explore the dark side of audiophilia but... i will never pay more than what these brands offers: this is already not cheap but you pay for quality and serious products ( backed up with verified specifications).
The optional box:
In all config i incorporated a way to manage the level of the whole system in an 'analog way': one physical volume potentiometer and button to switch off ( mute SPL Vol8) or select other digital source ( Bmc2).
The BMC2 does it thing in the digital domain ( you input stereo digital signal it attenuate and send to the next stage in the chain using digital audio stream (dsp).
The SPL does it in the analog domain between the dsp or soundcard DAC and the amplifiers analog inputs.
Both approach have both good points ( pro) and less good ones ( cons) from a technical level. But the use of it is mandatory in my view or ergonomic will suffer: it is a 'pick your poison' situation.
https://www.tcelectronic.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CIZ
https://spl.audio/en/spl-produkt/volume-8/?v=11aedd0e4327
However this can be discarded if you really want it and considered optional: Jriver virtual pot could be used intead, other player may have a smartphone remote, whatever...
The BMC 2 and Minidsp have three connections because both boxs accept the different digital format but only one is needed: you choose one and forget the others.
With dcx2496, AES/EBU mandatory.
The soundcard in the dsp configuration is needed for microphone input and digital in/out. It will offer probably and headphone and maybe a pair of other stereo output for let's say an auxilary analog listening chain ( a full ranger loudspeaker, an OB?).
Bcm2 offer this too ( headphone and aux conerters).
This is ample:
https://focusrite.com/fr/usb-audio-interface/scarlett/scarlett-2i2
The mic are the one already mentioned previously (Ecm8000, Dayton,...).
It took a bit longer than anticipated but here is my 'art'.
This is three possible configurations, others could be thoughts as well as the gear used that could be different equivalent reference, those are just example.
It include the physical units ( objects) used and the way they are connected together. The connections include audio signal path ( digital and analog) and computer related ones.
I've ommited powercord connections to your electric installation but you have to check total power consumption and if you do not need a dedicated 110/240v line installed (i don't know which standard is used in Brasil 110v/60hz or 240v/50hz). It can really help to be isolated from the house utility supply where motors and other smps non well protected pollute the supply line.
So computer related type:
Usb3. What i ve seen of recent unit is that it works flawlessly multichannel and high frequency. The new generations of medium priced converters have had same stepup in quality than entry level ones: they sound awfully close to my precious Lake which have 'state of the art' 15years old converters.
So to connect a soundcard or to have an editor to program your physical unit ( the minidsp hardware is programed thanks to a software running on pc. Usb doesn't carry audio in the case only configuration parameters and settings).
Digital audio:
There is a number of audio digital data transfer type and protocol. I presented only the 'older' ones usually present on most gear used the past 30years.
The future is network protocol focused but no need for this in your case now. If this approach please you and you want to pushes things then maybe it could be interesting. Not for a pair of stereo loudspeaker ( even 4 ways).
So here are the 3 main STEREO format used:
_AES/EBU
_SPdif
_Toslink
Aes/Ebu and SPdif are relatives ( they are based on same principle and can communicate between each others with an adaptater if needed). They use wire looking like either typical rca audio interconnect ( SPdif) or typical mic cable with XLR connectors ( AES/EBU). In fact they are not supposed to be typical analog audio cable but digital dedicated ones. Like that one for SPdif ( w3351/2895/2546/2964):
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/video/subminiature_miniature/
Or that one for AES/EBU:
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/dig_interface/aes_ebu/
Toslink is different in that it doesn't use wire/cable but optical fiber.
The connector looks like that: https://images.app.goo.gl/anYJ7BFFZ2yMWP6g7
One connection carries 2 chanels either input or output.
It have 2 great advantage over the wires:
_they are visually inobstrusive ( small and easy to hide)
_ if this is good quality fiber there is no way the signal can be polluted by any electro mechanical radiation, radiofrequence or whatever. It solves the issues of groundloops ( hum, buzz, noise) as each element within a chain is physically isolated from the other.
Some people say it might be more prone to 'jitter' ( a digital clock related issue) but my experience with pro gear is if seriously implemented i've never been able to distinguish AES/EBU, SPdit, TOslink (or ADAT which is another optical protocol used in proworld, using same physical connectors as Toslink but able to carry up to 8 channels).
I recommend this optical protocol when using computer/soundcard/dsp if possible. It really lower the headache if groundloops are anticipated.
The audio interconnects:
This:
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/snake/
Or this :
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/microphone/quality_balanced/
Or if in an area exposed to high EMF/RFI ( Electro Magnetic Field / Radio Frequence Interference) this:
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/microphone/quad/
For microphone to interface cable and soundcard/dsp analog out to the amplifiers.
If your amplifiers are into a 19" rack trolley ( as well as dsp and maybe computer) you can use multipairs ( 'snakes'). Less cable= cleaner.
For amplifier to loudspeaker cable i use this:
https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/conventional_configuration/
W3104 for low
W2972 for mid and high ( i tried W2921 but no difference with 2972 to me).
Of course you'll have to build these cables but it is an easy job with the adapted connectors ( Neutirk's Speakon for loudspeaker cable, Neutrik XLR or RCA connectors. No gold contact! Use the silver regular one they sound better and are almost infinite life.
I'm a Mogami guy, but there is Canare, Belden, Gotham Audio,... brands which are professional choice too. There is different sound between them if it satisfy your wish to explore the dark side of audiophilia but... i will never pay more than what these brands offers: this is already not cheap but you pay for quality and serious products ( backed up with verified specifications).
The optional box:
In all config i incorporated a way to manage the level of the whole system in an 'analog way': one physical volume potentiometer and button to switch off ( mute SPL Vol8) or select other digital source ( Bmc2).
The BMC2 does it thing in the digital domain ( you input stereo digital signal it attenuate and send to the next stage in the chain using digital audio stream (dsp).
The SPL does it in the analog domain between the dsp or soundcard DAC and the amplifiers analog inputs.
Both approach have both good points ( pro) and less good ones ( cons) from a technical level. But the use of it is mandatory in my view or ergonomic will suffer: it is a 'pick your poison' situation.
https://www.tcelectronic.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CIZ
https://spl.audio/en/spl-produkt/volume-8/?v=11aedd0e4327
However this can be discarded if you really want it and considered optional: Jriver virtual pot could be used intead, other player may have a smartphone remote, whatever...
The BMC 2 and Minidsp have three connections because both boxs accept the different digital format but only one is needed: you choose one and forget the others.
With dcx2496, AES/EBU mandatory.
The soundcard in the dsp configuration is needed for microphone input and digital in/out. It will offer probably and headphone and maybe a pair of other stereo output for let's say an auxilary analog listening chain ( a full ranger loudspeaker, an OB?).
Bcm2 offer this too ( headphone and aux conerters).
This is ample:
https://focusrite.com/fr/usb-audio-interface/scarlett/scarlett-2i2
The mic are the one already mentioned previously (Ecm8000, Dayton,...).
Attachments
Last edited:
🔴
Forgive me, I'm going away for a few days. I hospitalized my father yesterday, he is 87 years old. I was reading the posts, but I lost concentration with the reading.
I'll be back as soon as I can, thank you all very much.
Forgive me, I'm going away for a few days. I hospitalized my father yesterday, he is 87 years old. I was reading the posts, but I lost concentration with the reading.
I'll be back as soon as I can, thank you all very much.
Last edited by a moderator:
Take care of your father.
Wishes of fast recovery from my place.
Come back, we'll be around... lurking somewhere.
Wishes of fast recovery from my place.
Come back, we'll be around... lurking somewhere.
Qobuz -> Roon player -> Mac Mini -> CamillaDSP -> Clarett+8pre -> 4xTopping PA5 -> whatever 4 way system 🙂 -> music
# https://www.qobuz.com/se-en/discover
# https://roonlabs.com
# https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/
# https://github.com/HEnquist/camilladsp#camilladsp-v063
# https://focusrite.com/en/usb-c-audio-interface/clarett-plus/clarett-plus-8pre
# https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/inte...-d-amplifier-2x125w-4-ohm-silver-p-15848.html
# ?
# Beethoven 9:th
;-D
//
# https://www.qobuz.com/se-en/discover
# https://roonlabs.com
# https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/
# https://github.com/HEnquist/camilladsp#camilladsp-v063
# https://focusrite.com/en/usb-c-audio-interface/clarett-plus/clarett-plus-8pre
# https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/inte...-d-amplifier-2x125w-4-ohm-silver-p-15848.html
# ?
# Beethoven 9:th
;-D
//
Mike Judge, the creator and director of that movie said in a later interview that he didn't know he was creating a documentary. 😳
Sorry to hear about your dad man. I lost mine a few years back and my step mother a year ago to a COVID vaccine reaction. Family is more important then DIY audio gear. Take care of your pops we will be here.
My experience with using your PC for an active DSP is that you never know when one of Microsoft's updates is going to cause your whole setup to go haywire. I tried doing this once and never really got it working very well and then along came an update and the computer didn't even recognize the EQ APO anymore so I was going to have to reinstall everything and just decided I liked the way it sounded before using my ASUS sound card in basic Stereo and passive cross overs better and went back to using that. I was getting impatient with the whole thing.
Now that I'm building some new speakers (here is the build thread if anyone's interested. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ding-goodness-come-check-it-out.384012/latest ) I have the Dayton Audio 4 X 8 DSP that works great and is real easy to set up and use. It's really basic and you don't have the option of using FIR filters or any pre EQ before the X-overs that really isn't that important unless you are using the DSP for car audio where it is something you definitely want.
My experience with using your PC for an active DSP is that you never know when one of Microsoft's updates is going to cause your whole setup to go haywire. I tried doing this once and never really got it working very well and then along came an update and the computer didn't even recognize the EQ APO anymore so I was going to have to reinstall everything and just decided I liked the way it sounded before using my ASUS sound card in basic Stereo and passive cross overs better and went back to using that. I was getting impatient with the whole thing.
Now that I'm building some new speakers (here is the build thread if anyone's interested. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ding-goodness-come-check-it-out.384012/latest ) I have the Dayton Audio 4 X 8 DSP that works great and is real easy to set up and use. It's really basic and you don't have the option of using FIR filters or any pre EQ before the X-overs that really isn't that important unless you are using the DSP for car audio where it is something you definitely want.
That is quite the effort you undertook there. Bravo. When I was looking into DSP units to cross over my speaker project/amp build I looked at the mini DSP 4 X 10 HD and decided it cost to much at over a grand and opted for the Dayton 4 X 8 DSP instead. It doesn't have digital inputs and a few other bells and whistles but I don't really need them. One aspect I liked about the Dayton was it's compact size because I wanted to incorporate it into the case of the amplifier I was building. It all worked out pretty good, although I haven't yet figured out how I'm going to get power to the DSP unit. There are a couple of options I just haven't made up my mind yet what I want to do. If your interested. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/why-do-i-have-56v-on-my-vdrive.383620/
I pray for a swift and good recovery for him. Bless.
I know. It's the funniest, unfunny film I've ever seen. Still it's better than the future others like Klaus Schwab have envisioned for us.
There are so many lines and memes out of it I use all the time. My DVD came into my hand well before it was commonly available as I'd heard about it and actively searched for a copy. It wasn't easy to find or cheap at the time.
We are not supposed to talk about it but if we did I'm pretty sure we would have very similar beliefs and outlook. I was always a big fan of his earlier work "Bevis and Butthead". Social commentary at it's best.
Hope that turns out OK! You are right taking care for him. Best wishes for you all!
Thank you but it's not. I mean really. The 'art' is: as 'a chef d'oeuvre' in the world of installation schematics, but 'once you got the talent only your tools set the limit' i once been told.
And Paint ( windows xp edition) is quite a limit.
I have the merit to let the ( cyber) punk influence in me breakthrough in all it's glory. 😉
This kind of schematic is the first thing i've done when consulting for pro installation, being it a rehearsal room, project/home studio, pro control room,... even a live act is the same ( with it's own special things like having 2 desks sourced from same microphones so needing a split... one desk for the crowd ( FOH) and the other for musicians ( cues, their monitors or 'in ear').
It is the first step then you go down a level and things can be quit complicated quickly as you induce 'modularity' within the signal paths.
Without a good schematic of your instalation it is impossible to be able to operate this kind of thing:
https://images.app.goo.gl/K3bTqZ2pjE3DZuZt7
So even for a small system like a pair of loudspeaker it is the first mandatory step in my view ( on how it is approached professionaly).
It is nice to have the same thing for the differents software you need too: what they do, what kind of data they exchange, generate, where it is located,...
But i'm lazy... and you have example of how to do it if you want to. 😉
I get the grip against windows with not stable system. I've experienced it as i have in mac environnement too ( had a bunch of G5 to take care of, running Protools hd systems and other software , minimac as well).
Here is what my experience told me: you want a stable working system: it must be dedicated to one and only task, the os have to be optimised for the task and once stable it should stay like that.
You have to make and use disk image of stable configuration and reinstall if anything bug/have issue.
Update... well have to be tryed but you must be able to go back just in case.
Repeat after me : my audio computer is neither a credit card neither a PlayStation ... it don't need to be connected to internet too ( if you don't use streaming service - which i don't). But even then there is way to 'cheat' eg(example given) you can run Quobuz into Jriver if needed, through smartphone/tablet and bluetooth... and still no direct connection to the web of audio computer...
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While at it about computers:
_ psu matter.
_ it need to be silent.
_ no or less possible rotating parts within enclosure.
Your psu matter in a computer, as much as in amplifiers. It must be rated to the power consumption gear you'll use, but for audio gear it is often negligible. The cleaner your psu voltage are the better the computer will sound. Even if we are talking about digital.
I've had success with something from this brand: https://www.ldlc.com/fiche/PB00313581.html
Mine is semi fanless and produce almost zero noise. Each pc i use for sound is optimised for less noise possible.
I use Noctua (big) heatsink and fans. I moded my rack cases ( same kind as this, a 38cm deep one, not a server chassis: https://images.app.goo.gl/besjxs8poDHHjEZC9) to have bigger airflow from the 3x12cm which cool the box. The box internal is thought about to have no wiring blocking airflow. The fans are all pwm operated with a thermal probe and cooling profile.
The racks are located at lowest level on trolley: air is cooler closer to floor, it helps too.
SSD are a must. One for OS/software ( an M2 form factor) another one ( a 2,5") for temporary stockage. Make archive/backup of your files on multiple external HDD ( even 5400...) /NAS.
If you are paranoid i can describe what was used in commercial studios which had 'big projects' ( big international seller artist).
I've had anecdotal evidence that the less rotating part in the computer the best the sound is. I've came to conclusion that vibrations might produce errors within the digital flux and correcting errors mechanism along the way have to perform more, so there might be 'corruption' of data? I don't know, nothing scientific about it just my probably biased view on it.
In some situations i've seen computer driven thingy behaving not as they were supposed to do. It can come from a bad or poor earth. For digital the electric supply must be as clean as for audio.
In some case this is difficult: if there is factory around your area and they use CNC machine, the relay they use can really pollute the supply. In some area you could observe the sound of loudspeakers change in the evening, everything seems to be cleaner, smoother and with lower noise floor. This his not your mind, a factory might have been put to rest at night...
In this case these work: http://www.axon.fr/v2/?q=node/8
Pretty effective if you have a difficult situation relative to main supply. Some dislike the rendering of this kind of filter. I can only say the improvement i've heard with the particular model i linked were not subtle and in a good direction for my preference.
_ psu matter.
_ it need to be silent.
_ no or less possible rotating parts within enclosure.
Your psu matter in a computer, as much as in amplifiers. It must be rated to the power consumption gear you'll use, but for audio gear it is often negligible. The cleaner your psu voltage are the better the computer will sound. Even if we are talking about digital.
I've had success with something from this brand: https://www.ldlc.com/fiche/PB00313581.html
Mine is semi fanless and produce almost zero noise. Each pc i use for sound is optimised for less noise possible.
I use Noctua (big) heatsink and fans. I moded my rack cases ( same kind as this, a 38cm deep one, not a server chassis: https://images.app.goo.gl/besjxs8poDHHjEZC9) to have bigger airflow from the 3x12cm which cool the box. The box internal is thought about to have no wiring blocking airflow. The fans are all pwm operated with a thermal probe and cooling profile.
The racks are located at lowest level on trolley: air is cooler closer to floor, it helps too.
SSD are a must. One for OS/software ( an M2 form factor) another one ( a 2,5") for temporary stockage. Make archive/backup of your files on multiple external HDD ( even 5400...) /NAS.
If you are paranoid i can describe what was used in commercial studios which had 'big projects' ( big international seller artist).
I've had anecdotal evidence that the less rotating part in the computer the best the sound is. I've came to conclusion that vibrations might produce errors within the digital flux and correcting errors mechanism along the way have to perform more, so there might be 'corruption' of data? I don't know, nothing scientific about it just my probably biased view on it.
In some situations i've seen computer driven thingy behaving not as they were supposed to do. It can come from a bad or poor earth. For digital the electric supply must be as clean as for audio.
In some case this is difficult: if there is factory around your area and they use CNC machine, the relay they use can really pollute the supply. In some area you could observe the sound of loudspeakers change in the evening, everything seems to be cleaner, smoother and with lower noise floor. This his not your mind, a factory might have been put to rest at night...
In this case these work: http://www.axon.fr/v2/?q=node/8
Pretty effective if you have a difficult situation relative to main supply. Some dislike the rendering of this kind of filter. I can only say the improvement i've heard with the particular model i linked were not subtle and in a good direction for my preference.
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I don't know Allen, this is comments i've read, some people seems to prefer direct supply for some amplifiers. Some people dislike regulation too.
I can only tell what i observed and if people disliked this they must have reasons ( i hope so).
I can only tell what i observed and if people disliked this they must have reasons ( i hope so).
Yes but for different reasons.
It's not as though a filter can't sometimes make a difference. The comments you've been reading on why seem to be speculation and tend to fall into the snake oil category. It would be interesting to discuss some of these issues in the relevant parts of the forum, or the lounge as you might get some good opinion to better help explain. One wants to question the competence of the power supply in the piece of equipment being tested. Alternatively maybe the user prefers the effect of noise, or is imagining it.
It's not as though a filter can't sometimes make a difference. The comments you've been reading on why seem to be speculation and tend to fall into the snake oil category. It would be interesting to discuss some of these issues in the relevant parts of the forum, or the lounge as you might get some good opinion to better help explain. One wants to question the competence of the power supply in the piece of equipment being tested. Alternatively maybe the user prefers the effect of noise, or is imagining it.
For the most part I would agree with you here although things have changed for the better with todays computers and operating systems and they are a lot more stable then they where pre Windows 7 so it's not quite so critical but yea if it's a sound studio or recording studio you defiantly want dedicated purpose built computers that stay off the internet and have things like Windows update turned off so there is no unexpected interruptions in the middle of recording which would really be a bummer. With older systems running XP or heaven forbid Win 98 you definitely wanted them to have only one job. Todays systems are a lot more capable of multi tasking but I would still want separate systems say for running things like electronic drum kits that can put a heavy load on the computers resources.
Over the years I've helped friends that have had their own studios and rehearsal spaces and bands with various problems. Mostly with room acoustics and from time to time with their sound systems. So I'm no professional but not a stranger either. I've learned how to damp a room down and tame certain room modes that made these spaces terrible for playing music in prior to me treating them and doing so on the cheap or even some times without spending hardly any money at all.