Some AVR have a headphone out with DSP to enlarge the sound stage just for Kev.
Add in enough DACs and amps to do an active system with some bargains around and Kev is on a winner.
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@kazap about audiosciencereview. No group desillusion there.
So many different opinions are freely expressed on that forum.
Yes. Some. - No many useless fanboys of armirm; Are ignorant and floods the threads with point and use-less comments.
@amirmaj the head admin is aware that he is ignorant in some cases and is open for suggestions on how to improve his testing methods.
@kazap Which Media does overall better (more usefull) measurements than Amirms?
He does not claim that some things doesnt need to be heard. Going that way to give usefull buyingadvise would just take SO much knowledge of our hearing and perseption that You, me or Amirm are just not fit for this.
I dont know of any publikations that are. Do you?
(Edited several times to give any senseable meaning. Im getting tired of autospell)
Cheers!
So many different opinions are freely expressed on that forum.
Yes. Some. - No many useless fanboys of armirm; Are ignorant and floods the threads with point and use-less comments.
@amirmaj the head admin is aware that he is ignorant in some cases and is open for suggestions on how to improve his testing methods.
@kazap Which Media does overall better (more usefull) measurements than Amirms?
He does not claim that some things doesnt need to be heard. Going that way to give usefull buyingadvise would just take SO much knowledge of our hearing and perseption that You, me or Amirm are just not fit for this.
I dont know of any publikations that are. Do you?
(Edited several times to give any senseable meaning. Im getting tired of autospell)
Cheers!
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Thanks for all the thoughts everyone; your test of de-tuning your DSP is particularly interesting, kazap, thank you.
Overall, it is clear that fiddling with dsp, crossfeed etc is the way I need to go, at least to begin with. Better amp (and dac) would be on the list too, though my current hardware isn't so poor that the improvement in soundstage from that should really be revolutionary, so perhaps that would be the subsequent step.
Yes, i'm aware of audiosciencereview; it is certainly very useful for comparing technical measurements and for stepping past some of the myth and superstition that pervades (much of) the audio world. Though personally I would only use it for assessing certain things; there is the complex matter of human perception (both pysiological and psychological) lying between any such measurements and their relevance (or potentially the lack of it) to the listener. In this case, there isn't a very direct link that i can identify between the data offered and their relationship to the soundstage that an individual might perceive. So canvassing people's thoughts and experiences seems also useful, subjective as these will inevitably be.
Cheers,
Kev
Overall, it is clear that fiddling with dsp, crossfeed etc is the way I need to go, at least to begin with. Better amp (and dac) would be on the list too, though my current hardware isn't so poor that the improvement in soundstage from that should really be revolutionary, so perhaps that would be the subsequent step.
Yes, i'm aware of audiosciencereview; it is certainly very useful for comparing technical measurements and for stepping past some of the myth and superstition that pervades (much of) the audio world. Though personally I would only use it for assessing certain things; there is the complex matter of human perception (both pysiological and psychological) lying between any such measurements and their relevance (or potentially the lack of it) to the listener. In this case, there isn't a very direct link that i can identify between the data offered and their relationship to the soundstage that an individual might perceive. So canvassing people's thoughts and experiences seems also useful, subjective as these will inevitably be.
Cheers,
Kev
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Thanks for updating me. I hadnt read comments on that site for a long time after repeatedly reading abusive and arrogant comments. I must have had a bad run. I found the measurements on ASR to be very useful sometimes. Its a real service for all of us. But they didnt seem to come with an embedded interpretation of the utility of the measurements. SINAD seemed to be the defacto ranking criteria without mention of when SINAD would have been audible and of significance.
Nope. I like using the measurements as a screening starting point and then try and read as many listening reports as possible. Everyone hears differently but by amassing multiple perspectives its often possible to build a coherent picture of inherent audible qualities beyond the measurements.
Nicely put. That web site that lists parameters for headphone soundstage I didnt want to share with you as its got no validity or reliability to back its numbers. Its another case of generating numbers with no meaning.
Well using DSP's is very quick to do and free. So why not? It might get the soundstage out of within your head but I think you will still be disappointed without a frontal stage effect.
Did you have any more thoughts about setting up some dipole speakers? If you have drivers already and do nude driver suspension it would be quick and fun project. I think for you the key could be dipole woofer bass <100Hz right behind your listening chair. This will max bass for your ears and minimise bass for the neighbour, while not interfering with imagining from the front OB's. OB should give a nice soundstage with direct and reflected F's. Enjoy!
You could use ACA's to drive high impedance Sennheiser's directly. It does not get better than this for the money spent.
As for the headphones choice, I have HD650 which I like a lot, but they need to be driven with a very good amp, hence ACA's. Slightly cheaper but also fantastic is HD599 which in some areas outperforms HD650; I got a couple of HD599's for my kids when they were on special at Amazon (AU$199 !!) - unbelievable deal.
This ^ prediction is very much what I've come to believe too; it is the picture painted by several considered opinions in this thread, my other online research and initial tests with both DSP and some borrowed hardware. So yes; expectations are now curbed, which reduces my enthusiasm somewhat but will help to prevent disappointment.
However, the improvement may still be enough that i can ignore the issue, so would be valuable none the less. It has slowly become clear that I'll need to use a headphone system at certain times of day, whether that would be my first choice or not. So whatever happens, I shall persevere with the improvements over time.
I'm not specifically homing in on dipoles (or any other configuration yet) but yes I am getting quite keen on a small, quiet, closely placed set of speakers for those times when I can use them. Initial tests with some existing 2-way bookshelves have been very promising even though they aren't ideal for it.
Cheers,
Kev
Thanks, those amps look very nice indeed! I'm obviously quite some way from arriving at specific headphone/amp decisions myself, but assuming the dsp tests go well then I shall be wanting to do something at least vaguely similar. Building the amp(s) would be fun and likely very satisfying to do.
Interesting idea - so a couple of small drivers placed slightly forward of the ears. It looks like a listening angle of something like 120degrees perhaps, though a bit hard to gauge from the photo.
So, that seems to be mid-way between the headphones in this thread and the near-field listening I'm considering in another. Probably it shares some of both's advantages and disadvantages.
Looks a bit daft, but I'd imagine a great deal comes down to how comfortable it actually feels, as well as whether the response is adequate. Unlike headphones they aren't sealed to the head/ear and yet have no baffle to speak of, but perhaps such proximity to the ears might make up for a lot.
This could be something that I have to try - at least to see if it is a real possibility or a daft idea. Though if it has any potential, personally i'd be more tempted to build such an arrangement into a headrest than have them perched on a head-band - could be quite comfortable to have such a headrest on a reclining chair, for example. Also would allow more flexibility for designs which weigh more or take up more space, and might therefore permit more typically speaker-like configurations.
So, that seems to be mid-way between the headphones in this thread and the near-field listening I'm considering in another. Probably it shares some of both's advantages and disadvantages.
Looks a bit daft, but I'd imagine a great deal comes down to how comfortable it actually feels, as well as whether the response is adequate. Unlike headphones they aren't sealed to the head/ear and yet have no baffle to speak of, but perhaps such proximity to the ears might make up for a lot.
This could be something that I have to try - at least to see if it is a real possibility or a daft idea. Though if it has any potential, personally i'd be more tempted to build such an arrangement into a headrest than have them perched on a head-band - could be quite comfortable to have such a headrest on a reclining chair, for example. Also would allow more flexibility for designs which weigh more or take up more space, and might therefore permit more typically speaker-like configurations.
Would you even bother proving it?
First of all HD650 can be driven by almost any op-amp at full swing with less than 0.01% thd
4 years ago i did comparative listenings between my dt880 and hd650(both were new) on the same cheapest of the cheap entry level m-audio computer soundcard which probably had a njm4556 op amp driving the headphones and i could definitely hear that hd650 had a more balanced sound although i know i can get better than just using a single njm4556 anytime . Since then i built about 6..7 different hph amplifiers that had very good yet slightly different presentation while some were very expensive to build and others were very cheap to build.
Usually i get quickly bored by reading that amplifiers weighing 2 kg are way better at driving 100gr of headphones than anything on the market , but this time i was triggered by a combination of words implying cost /quality ratio.
I really want proof of that as I can't believe it, especially when said about Sennheiser hd650 which can be driven to its full potential with a single op-amp.
For about two weeks i looked into expensive watches reviews and videos and i've seen the same quotes as yours repeating over and over again but this time implying 1500$....500 000$ mechanical watches that can't do a damn thing to measure the time better than my 100$ android phone or the chinese Convoy 17 melodies 10$ electronic watch that woke me up for school in the 90's can...
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It used to be that electronics needed to cost similar amounts to the drivers etc. and often meant significant compromises on things like size, efficiency and performance. But today I don't believe that this is quite so; high tolerance mechanical engineering has of course advanced but is still fairly costly and still wrestling with the stubborn laws of physics, whilst in a relative sense electronics have become magnitudes cheaper, smaller and more advanced. In general audio is quite trivial for modern electronics, and so with good design they need not be bulky, inefficient or costly for superb audio quality. When they are then IMO a great deal of what one pays for now is either additional functionality, quite subtle diminishing returns, or something esoteric (or marketing and hype that tends towards myth and superstition).
I'm less familiar with headphone amps but i'm sure the same trend applies. Of course, one or two of my old laptops do have audio output that is more or less a token gesture, but I doubt that I could build anything that would improve upon my higher-end soundcards except where headphones were more difficult to drive. I almost certainly couldn't improve on even very modestly priced and compact commercial offerings from topping, schiit etc.
So will i build an amp? Undecided, but still a possibly. Which may seem odd, but of course this is a hobby rather than an objective necessity, and building something like pictured above would be fun and satisfying, with a sense of history (and maybe even obsession) behind it. Though yes, I might prefer something more efficient and compact for the current application.
I'm less familiar with headphone amps but i'm sure the same trend applies. Of course, one or two of my old laptops do have audio output that is more or less a token gesture, but I doubt that I could build anything that would improve upon my higher-end soundcards except where headphones were more difficult to drive. I almost certainly couldn't improve on even very modestly priced and compact commercial offerings from topping, schiit etc.
So will i build an amp? Undecided, but still a possibly. Which may seem odd, but of course this is a hobby rather than an objective necessity, and building something like pictured above would be fun and satisfying, with a sense of history (and maybe even obsession) behind it. Though yes, I might prefer something more efficient and compact for the current application.
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Well i did a bit of very brief testing. As expected, the bass is there if the drivers are held very close to the ears, though it diminishes quickly when not. Unfortunately having them so close to the ears makes a similar inside-head soundstage as headphones - it is placed a 'little' bit more forward which is better, but lacks the clarity of 'phones (or indeed near-field speakers). So some potential, but I'm thinking more investigation is needed - and very probably either a baffle or enclosure, more like speakers, or else a seal with the head more like proper phones.
I find it completely useless...I am a pocket watch guy and my smarphone is heavy enough.When i was 18 years old my father respected his own father's tradition and bought me a Seiko mechanical watch which i had on my wrist for about 2 days then i gave it up for my 10 grams electronic Convoy watch from which i removed the metal strap and stuffed it in my pockets.I was a sportsman and being mostly a physical guy I needed my hands completely free .I couldn't care less if a watch can deal with watter or schocks...besides in my youth i was a biological watch as i could appreciate time with about 5...10 minutes precision only by knowing the time in the morning and taking the daily events and the sun position in the sky into consideration.Most people can do it too and i can hardly see the usefulness of a clock at all unless i need to meet someone at a fixed hour.
By the way the Seiko watch proved to be a fake unlike the Pobeda watch his father gave him when he got 18 years of old...His russian Pobeda worked for about 40 years then it was replaced with my Seiko which worked for about 2 years before it needed its first fix.If there was no smarphone on the market i'd probably have my Convoy chinese watch still in my pocket cause it never stopped unless its battery did first.
By the way the Seiko watch proved to be a fake unlike the Pobeda watch his father gave him when he got 18 years of old...His russian Pobeda worked for about 40 years then it was replaced with my Seiko which worked for about 2 years before it needed its first fix.If there was no smarphone on the market i'd probably have my Convoy chinese watch still in my pocket cause it never stopped unless its battery did first.
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Well just to update the story on this thread, it was clear that the quality of my signal for the headphones was in question, from any of the methods I had to hand. So I ended up getting a topping dx3 pro+ combined dac and headphone-amp. It wasn't especially expensive, as audio equipment goes, and I'm extremely pleased with results: much better sound quality than from a couple of my laptop's jacks and also than the jack on my integrated amplifier. As a result, I've been enjoying my music collection with new appreciation.
There has been much less improvement in the apparent sound-stage, it is still largely as if any orchestra or band is playing within my head rather than spread out in front, though perhaps improved a tiny bit. I'm not going to start upgrading headphones since I'm sure the benefits will be fairly marginal over those that I have, but will simply accept the nature of the beast and continue to enjoy the other qualities that I'm getting now. (For improved spacial characteristics some tests with closely located speakers are proving to be considerably more successful so that is where my focus has moved in that regard).
So thanks for everyone's help with this, it has helped to clarify my expectations and at least resulted in making much better use of my 'phones.
Kev
There has been much less improvement in the apparent sound-stage, it is still largely as if any orchestra or band is playing within my head rather than spread out in front, though perhaps improved a tiny bit. I'm not going to start upgrading headphones since I'm sure the benefits will be fairly marginal over those that I have, but will simply accept the nature of the beast and continue to enjoy the other qualities that I'm getting now. (For improved spacial characteristics some tests with closely located speakers are proving to be considerably more successful so that is where my focus has moved in that regard).
So thanks for everyone's help with this, it has helped to clarify my expectations and at least resulted in making much better use of my 'phones.
Kev
As you're discovering it is the nature of headphones to form the soundstage from stereo recordings inside your head. If you have a dealer nearby audition the Meze 99 Classics over the ear. They have fantastic sound, great bass and tend to pull the soundstage out in front of you. Right move to get a dedicated headphone amp.
Thanks, if ever I continue with this then I shall add the classics to my short list. Though sadly local dealers are becoming rarer and rarer these days, so probably I'd have to order and then post back unless I wanted to keep them. Oh well.
Kev,
Headphone sound is a subjective kind of affair. What sounds 'buttery sweet' to me, might sound 'muffled' to others and what's squeaky clean and engaging for one, can be torturing bright to another person.
So, keeping that in mind, i'd say your specific pair of cans (HD589 if i'm not mistaken) can be pretty good in terms of soundstage.
For example, compared to my HD600 pair, my HD599 pair (the 'updated' model to your HD598) does a better job at creating a sense of width, depth and height for music (soundstage). However, HD600 are very good in timbre and accuracy, especially towards the higher bands of the spectrum.
Now, you've made the step towards a dedicated headphone ampifier and enjoying the results.
A dedicated DAC, or a headphone amplifier (tube amps are great!), or both, add incrementally to your cans' performance. Enjoy your existing setup and maybe consider a DIY cable.
A simple, 24-26AWG silver-plated copper, stranded wire, will add a bit of clarity in both extremes of the spectrum. Get some good quality connectors, nothing crazy, just good solid stuff and give it a try.
It might add a bit to better imaging/staging as well, so you've got little to lose.
Headphone sound is a subjective kind of affair. What sounds 'buttery sweet' to me, might sound 'muffled' to others and what's squeaky clean and engaging for one, can be torturing bright to another person.
So, keeping that in mind, i'd say your specific pair of cans (HD589 if i'm not mistaken) can be pretty good in terms of soundstage.
For example, compared to my HD600 pair, my HD599 pair (the 'updated' model to your HD598) does a better job at creating a sense of width, depth and height for music (soundstage). However, HD600 are very good in timbre and accuracy, especially towards the higher bands of the spectrum.
Now, you've made the step towards a dedicated headphone ampifier and enjoying the results.
A dedicated DAC, or a headphone amplifier (tube amps are great!), or both, add incrementally to your cans' performance. Enjoy your existing setup and maybe consider a DIY cable.
A simple, 24-26AWG silver-plated copper, stranded wire, will add a bit of clarity in both extremes of the spectrum. Get some good quality connectors, nothing crazy, just good solid stuff and give it a try.
It might add a bit to better imaging/staging as well, so you've got little to lose.