Use a small dipole speaker. Listen in the near field.
In a dedicated room, you can get away with a 12 by 10 room. Place the speakers 3 feet (*) from the front wall and foot and a half from the sides, aimed at listening seat. Assuming an 18" width, that makes the inside, from speaker to speaker about four feet. If Maggies, put the tweeter ribbons to the outside. Place your listening chair sit six feet back, three feet from the back wall. That will give roughly an equilateral 6 foot triangle. There will be no side wall reflections.
You might want to hang a heavy tapestry behind the listening seat.
I once went with Maggie 12s to do this... in a 12x10x(9->11) (yep high cathedral ceiling) room. If you want to buy new, then Maggie LRS or .7 would be really good.
This distance from the wall is a non debatable point... it is the minimum really. I've played with them from two to four feet and three is the best. My current room is 21 by 14 by 8 with four openings on the sides. Two per side. I suppose in a longer room you could do farther but don't go any closer.
Oh, another thing. with Maggies, you can sit off the side and still get a nice, solid image. Sure, not the 100%, but a very good 95%. This is because of the rear radiation...
Here's an interesting discussion in another forum..
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...or-any-large-speaker-in-a-small-room-why-not/
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Have you done any other tests, or just stopped with FR? How do you control bias in listening tests?
Yes, and I too believe in listening tests. But I also believe that in order for something to sound different the waveform arriving at the ear must change. And if the waveform at the ear changed, then something that generated the acoustic wave, or was involved in the transmission of the acoustic wave also changed. Possibly the signal driving the transducer changed. Regardless, if the waveform changed, which it must to make an audible change, then we can measure what changed. It's only a question of how to measure, and what to measure, then how to apply audible thresholds. But to measure, then give up and listen only is the study of effect only without understanding cause, which is bad science.
Vinyl and analog tape certainly do modify the stored signal quite a bit, but if either system is properly calibrated, there will be no audible interchannel differences. It is not true that vinyl and tape offer wider soundstage because of that. In fact, the reverse is true. You can always tell the difference between a pair of stereo speakers and a single mono speaker because both ears hear both speakers, one delayed by up to 800uS. A mono speake presents identical signals to both ears, no delay, no HRTF. Not the same at all. The phantom center image between a stereo pair is extremely fragile, a little head movement will confuse it.
There you go, OP, more treatment suggestions.
Actually, plasnu said that he didn't think room treatments would immediately improve the sound stage by itself, but with the combination with another solution, it may help. So, I'm still not sure about room treatment as being the place to start. Maybe something to try after everything else.
Plus, I'm now thinking that the most important thing to do is to add more bass to what I currently have and worry about sound stage later.
To properly evaluate these suggestions you need to learn more about acoustics. These are long-established principles, and not in question by any professional. Amateurs seem to reject any form of science and all authoritative literature for whatever reason.
So then this tread is done. 44 pages since you asked for help improving your soundstage, and now you want to add bass instead. So...a sub or two. Are you going to take advantage of the capabilities of your AVR, which is eminently suited for the task?
I said quite a while ago that I brought out another set of speakers with Audio Nirvana 10" Classics drivers and after listening to them realized that the 6" mid woofer in the Piccolos did not go nearly low enough for some classical music. I then said as a direct result of that test my priorities had changed, and I decided to first address the bass issue and leave the other items for later. If you would like, I can find the exact post where this was said.
So, no I haven't abandoned the sound stage issue, but have pushed in down the priority stack for now.
You didn't need to try anything to know that, but since you did, why not now correlate your findings to the actual performance specs of the speakers?
I don't need any further correlation. It's clear that what I need now is an additional driver to add to the Piccolos in order to extend the low end. It's either that or completely replace the Piccolos with something else,
And that is where my current efforts for improvement are concentrated.
What you need to keep in mind is that everything in the listening room is a room treatment of some sort. Anything in the room will either absorb or reflect the sound.
Also keep in mind that in your small room and with you sitting fairly close to your speakers, the room effects are not that great as you mostly hear direct sound from the speakers. Most all reflected sound arrive too late to be recognized as the direct sound has just moved on. Room effects are a much bigger issue in larger rooms and with the way people then set up their rooms.
Yes, thank you. That is exactly what I have been saying. In my small room sitting in the near field with the speakers point right at me I'm hearing mostly direct sound and the reflected sound is not really that important.
Also, add in that the room has very thick carpet throughout, and I sit in a heavily upholstered high back chair that blocks virtually all the sound reflected off the wall behind me.
Not everyone here agrees those things matter that much. Some people still think that room treatments are necessary regardless. And maybe at some point those might be worth trying. But not until I worked my way down the list of other things that I believe could make a noticeable difference first.
Also, add in that the room has very thick carpet throughout, and I sit in a heavily upholstered high back chair that blocks virtually all the sound reflected off the wall behind me.
Not everyone here agrees those things matter that much. Some people still think that room treatments are necessary regardless. And maybe at some point those might be worth trying. But not until I worked my way down the list of other things that I believe could make a noticeable difference first.
Here is something else for you to ponder....................
Just sit in your chair and take a look at how everything in the room is. Look from side to side mostly. What is different on the right side to the left side? Is there a window on one of the side walls? If it is not exactly the same in all aspects on each side, that will throw the sound off just a tiny bit. That is why you have to fiddle with the speaker positioning a little bit. I have already sent you the info on how to do that. You could probably do it pretty quickly with your present setup. Yes, it will make a difference.
Another thought is..........have you tried a different chair? The high backed chair can block a lot more than what you think it does.
Just sit in your chair and take a look at how everything in the room is. Look from side to side mostly. What is different on the right side to the left side? Is there a window on one of the side walls? If it is not exactly the same in all aspects on each side, that will throw the sound off just a tiny bit. That is why you have to fiddle with the speaker positioning a little bit. I have already sent you the info on how to do that. You could probably do it pretty quickly with your present setup. Yes, it will make a difference.
Another thought is..........have you tried a different chair? The high backed chair can block a lot more than what you think it does.
Totally useless video. This guy is doing these to make money. At least he is honest about that.
I stopped watching him when he did a video about tube connectors. He had his brother listen to two identical speakers - one with tube connectors and with regular type binding posts. When his brother initially said that he didn't hear any difference, Ron told him to listen again more carefully. After several tries and being clearly pressured to hear a difference, his brother finally conceded that there might be a slight difference. Then Ron wraps up the video with a conclusion that tube connectors really do make a difference that can be heard as proven by the test with his brother. It was one of the most unscientific comparison tests imaginable. As a result, I take nothing this guy posts seriously.
Classicalfan,
Here is some more information on setting up speakers that is very helpful in a small room.
Here is a video featuring the late Dave Wilson. You really only need to pay attention to the first 5 minutes. That's where it's all at.
The important part is to get the speakers placed in an area where they are least affected by room boundaries (walls). You will see a guy walking out into the room and placing tape on the floor. Follow the video explanation and then do exactly the same thing.
I thought it to be a bit of mumbo jumbo but I did it anyway. When you get out in the room the required amount the sound of your voice gets instantly clearer. I did it 3 times just to make sure I was not fooling myself.
In your small room, you only need to pay attention to the minimum distances out from the rear wall and side wall. You only need be 3-4 inches beyond minimum. That keeps the speakers a fair distance away from you and as wide apart as possible.
When you did your toe in/out thing............ facing the speakers forward likely coupled one or both speakers to a wall and thus you got the 2 separate speaker sound. Toeing the speakers in got you in to the decoupled area. IF you move the speakers together a few inches you could likely take out a bunch of the toe in and still be in the decoupled area. This will give you a wider sound field. Toe in always increases the sound towards the center.
You might properly concluded that you are already in this area of least affected by room boundaries sound, as mentioned in the video. But doing the exercise will help clarify things a bit. And if you want the best sound just remember my post from yesterday on room symmetry and fiddling with the speaker positioning. It only takes a bit of time, and you always have time to make better sound.
Steve
Here is some more information on setting up speakers that is very helpful in a small room.
Here is a video featuring the late Dave Wilson. You really only need to pay attention to the first 5 minutes. That's where it's all at.
The important part is to get the speakers placed in an area where they are least affected by room boundaries (walls). You will see a guy walking out into the room and placing tape on the floor. Follow the video explanation and then do exactly the same thing.
I thought it to be a bit of mumbo jumbo but I did it anyway. When you get out in the room the required amount the sound of your voice gets instantly clearer. I did it 3 times just to make sure I was not fooling myself.
In your small room, you only need to pay attention to the minimum distances out from the rear wall and side wall. You only need be 3-4 inches beyond minimum. That keeps the speakers a fair distance away from you and as wide apart as possible.
When you did your toe in/out thing............ facing the speakers forward likely coupled one or both speakers to a wall and thus you got the 2 separate speaker sound. Toeing the speakers in got you in to the decoupled area. IF you move the speakers together a few inches you could likely take out a bunch of the toe in and still be in the decoupled area. This will give you a wider sound field. Toe in always increases the sound towards the center.
You might properly concluded that you are already in this area of least affected by room boundaries sound, as mentioned in the video. But doing the exercise will help clarify things a bit. And if you want the best sound just remember my post from yesterday on room symmetry and fiddling with the speaker positioning. It only takes a bit of time, and you always have time to make better sound.
Steve
I have fiddled with speaker positioning quite a bit. And now have them where I get a very good sound stage. It's not as though I am completely missing any sound stage at all. It's actually pretty good and I enjoy the listening experience.
My initial request was just to find a way to make it somewhat bigger. But I'm coming around to the idea that the current sound stage is probably about as large as I'm going to be able to get in this room with these speakers.
I'll watch this when I get some time and maybe try some of the things. Will let you know what happens.
I think he's sitting a bit too close... but, as I wrote earlier, in my old 10x12 room, I sat fairly close to my speakers in the "near field". It is definitely a One Person set up, but it works very well. I sat in a six foot equilateral triangle with my mini monitors. Later, I replace them with Maggie 12, and it too sounded very good.
This setup only works, IMHO, with small speakers with very short distances between the drivers, mini-monitors, or coaxial/triaxial configurations or, of course, with line/planar speakers.
Does it look good? Well, it's a small one person room, so nobody needs to know about it.