I made this post on a thread that was way off track on a different forum, I couldn't find the right forum so I will try here, maybe a moderator can move it the correct forum.
There was a post that stated the room followed by the speakers as the biggest influence on the sound stage and imagining if I actually understand what those terms mean. But there was mention of what creates these things being an allusion that our brains create. It seems this part was passed over very quickly but I find incredibly interesting for personal reasons.
I only realized that my brain worked differently than most people I know in the last few years, actually I knew it, but I didn't understand how it is different. By asking everyone I know a simple question I figured it, "Do you see a picture in your mind when you think of something?" Their answers surprised me and my answer startled everyone, I don't don't see any pictures and every one I spoke to did. They asked what do I see? Nothing, I just think about the object, face or what ever. This thread made me look at this more and what I have (actually what I am) is called aphantasia and about 2% of the population have it.
Why I bring this up here is it turns out to be more than a lack of "Mind's Eye" it goes to all senses. Reading about it revealed to me that I don't have a voice in my head either and the other 98% hear their own voice when they think.
Finally I will get to my point, for the last 50 years I have been buying audio equipment, placing speakers try to get the promised 3D sound with little or no results, so I think that my brain is incapable of building the illusion. I don't know if this true or not, but I would be interested to find out if anybody reading this is the same as me. Don't get me wrong, being wired like this is fine with me, I have been thinking circles around my peers all my life and look at this as a gift, not a handicap. It would be great if I could experience reproduced sound like everyone else, but I still enjoy what I hear, but a lot of descriptions I read about others experiences have always left me wondering. My theory now is my aphantasia also prevents me form building the 3D illusion that stereo depends on.
There was a post that stated the room followed by the speakers as the biggest influence on the sound stage and imagining if I actually understand what those terms mean. But there was mention of what creates these things being an allusion that our brains create. It seems this part was passed over very quickly but I find incredibly interesting for personal reasons.
I only realized that my brain worked differently than most people I know in the last few years, actually I knew it, but I didn't understand how it is different. By asking everyone I know a simple question I figured it, "Do you see a picture in your mind when you think of something?" Their answers surprised me and my answer startled everyone, I don't don't see any pictures and every one I spoke to did. They asked what do I see? Nothing, I just think about the object, face or what ever. This thread made me look at this more and what I have (actually what I am) is called aphantasia and about 2% of the population have it.
Why I bring this up here is it turns out to be more than a lack of "Mind's Eye" it goes to all senses. Reading about it revealed to me that I don't have a voice in my head either and the other 98% hear their own voice when they think.
Finally I will get to my point, for the last 50 years I have been buying audio equipment, placing speakers try to get the promised 3D sound with little or no results, so I think that my brain is incapable of building the illusion. I don't know if this true or not, but I would be interested to find out if anybody reading this is the same as me. Don't get me wrong, being wired like this is fine with me, I have been thinking circles around my peers all my life and look at this as a gift, not a handicap. It would be great if I could experience reproduced sound like everyone else, but I still enjoy what I hear, but a lot of descriptions I read about others experiences have always left me wondering. My theory now is my aphantasia also prevents me form building the 3D illusion that stereo depends on.
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As I understand "depth" is a matter of midrange balance. Width has a lot to do with near reflections, within 2 feet. I am not sure acoustic imaging is the same set of proceptions. Maybe you have not heard a decent system?
Everyone's brain works differently. I happen to be very visual. Ironic, my wife the art major, is not. But I have the narrow issue of not remembering faces.
Everyone's brain works differently. I happen to be very visual. Ironic, my wife the art major, is not. But I have the narrow issue of not remembering faces.
I have aphantasia too and I usually get a one-dimensional stereo image (or two-dimensionsal if you count time) going from about a metre outside the speakers. I do get some height (no definition to it), but depth is totally lacking.
I think I hear voices in my own voice, but I think out loud a lot, so that could be it
Brian
I think I hear voices in my own voice, but I think out loud a lot, so that could be it
Brian
It would depend on music genre and the actual recording as well.
Being involved with music and the recording process.
Most instruments are just a mono source then panned for stereo image.
Most peoples descriptions of "imaging" often sounds silly to me.
Because the recording doesn't even contain what they describe.
Often delays, reverbs and other widening effects are used to give a recording more
width.
A acoustic drumkit or live orchestra could be recorded in " stereo"
if the microphones are placed the way our ears would hear it.
Then you capture that instrument/ instruments in that room.
More often than not its individual microphones to capture each drum.
Or individual microphones for individual sections of orchestra.
to capture everything.
Then a " room" mix might be included.
More often the individual mics are panned to represent
the stereo placement.
We dont just hear exactly what our ears hear.
there is additional brain function.
Because of additional brain function it makes binaural Audio/ Binaural beats possible.
Low frequency sound is non directional,
as smaller mammals for survival.
Our brains have adapted to give directionality to certain frequencies.
Helps determine direction of on coming prey.
Being involved with music and the recording process.
Most instruments are just a mono source then panned for stereo image.
Most peoples descriptions of "imaging" often sounds silly to me.
Because the recording doesn't even contain what they describe.
Often delays, reverbs and other widening effects are used to give a recording more
width.
A acoustic drumkit or live orchestra could be recorded in " stereo"
if the microphones are placed the way our ears would hear it.
Then you capture that instrument/ instruments in that room.
More often than not its individual microphones to capture each drum.
Or individual microphones for individual sections of orchestra.
to capture everything.
Then a " room" mix might be included.
More often the individual mics are panned to represent
the stereo placement.
We dont just hear exactly what our ears hear.
there is additional brain function.
Because of additional brain function it makes binaural Audio/ Binaural beats possible.
Low frequency sound is non directional,
as smaller mammals for survival.
Our brains have adapted to give directionality to certain frequencies.
Helps determine direction of on coming prey.
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Have you all checked out:
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php
Audio spatial imaging is frequency, time and phase.
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php
Audio spatial imaging is frequency, time and phase.
brig001,
You nailed it, I should have also pointed out that I don't really get a 2D illusion , let alone a 3D one. Even the phantom center eludes me, I can setup an equilateral triangle with a set of speakers, sit in the golden seat and get almost no 2D placing of sounds beyond what is centered on the left and right speakers. Sounds from outside the speakers don't really happen for me either. If however I'm at a live event, say an opera, I can place the singers in space with my eyes closed, so I don't think I'm incapable of locating sound sources, just unable to process the stereo trick. I have a 5.1 system and I can locate sounds to the sides, but those too seem to be coming from the speakers and not the space in between.
tvr,
I have listened to many systems over the years, not just my own and I find hard to believe that the all were so bad that they couldn't create a phantom center. Everyone else seems to be hearing 2D/3D, sound stage, imaging etc but not me.
You nailed it, I should have also pointed out that I don't really get a 2D illusion , let alone a 3D one. Even the phantom center eludes me, I can setup an equilateral triangle with a set of speakers, sit in the golden seat and get almost no 2D placing of sounds beyond what is centered on the left and right speakers. Sounds from outside the speakers don't really happen for me either. If however I'm at a live event, say an opera, I can place the singers in space with my eyes closed, so I don't think I'm incapable of locating sound sources, just unable to process the stereo trick. I have a 5.1 system and I can locate sounds to the sides, but those too seem to be coming from the speakers and not the space in between.
tvr,
I have listened to many systems over the years, not just my own and I find hard to believe that the all were so bad that they couldn't create a phantom center. Everyone else seems to be hearing 2D/3D, sound stage, imaging etc but not me.
Another member who claimed inability to experience sound stage illusion (if he did not lie to me) is Syn08. Maybe you can PM him if he does not participate on this thread.
Think its more with imagining mental images.
As far as determining the source of sound.
If you had a tone on the left side, can you tell its on the left.
You likely can hear stereo, also see in stereo or 3D
You just wont be writing any silly exaggerated sound reviews.
like others can.
I think marketing tells people what sound looks like.
Because people have their own imagination they believe it.
Since you don't imagine shapes and images.
You dont imagine " A guitar player in the room to the left"
But if you listen to music, yes the guitar track is panned to the left.
As far as determining the source of sound.
If you had a tone on the left side, can you tell its on the left.
You likely can hear stereo, also see in stereo or 3D
You just wont be writing any silly exaggerated sound reviews.
like others can.
I think marketing tells people what sound looks like.
Because people have their own imagination they believe it.
Since you don't imagine shapes and images.
You dont imagine " A guitar player in the room to the left"
But if you listen to music, yes the guitar track is panned to the left.
One of my goals with any system is a solid 3D image/soundstage, but it has to be persevered in the software if you have an chance.
So yes, a 3D image/soundstage illusion is possible.
Do note that one member estimated that 10% of the human population cannot form a stereo illusion.
dave
The 3D thing is very possible and very startling when superbly done. For me it's a huge part of the enjoyment.
Back in the 70s a worked for a neighbor who was a computer scientist. Very smart, obviously tech savvy. But he claimed that stereo was a rip off, a fraud, that it sounded no different from mono. He didn't have hearing loss. He just could not hear the difference.
I've never read about anyone else with that problem.
Back in the 70s a worked for a neighbor who was a computer scientist. Very smart, obviously tech savvy. But he claimed that stereo was a rip off, a fraud, that it sounded no different from mono. He didn't have hearing loss. He just could not hear the difference.
I've never read about anyone else with that problem.
ctrlx,
I do listen with my eyes closed, it helps a little but very little.
Pano,
Like your friend I am a computer tech, it seems I was born to do the work I do. I have great problem solving and trouble shooting skills. Once I learn something I never forget it. I freak people out with the details I remember. On the other hand I can't see pictures in my head nor remember sounds by hearing them in my head. I am a horrible speller in English, but good at grammar, I suspect because the later is rules based and the former not. I also believe that I'm on the Asperger's scale, but over the years I have somehow moved back towards the normal range (whatever that may be). My niece once tried to explain me how people feel (guess I lack the ability remember emotions too) so asked what that made me and she said that I am a pod (Invasion of the Body Snatchers).
I'm just wondering if all this is linked together and so far it looks like there might be three of us.
I do listen with my eyes closed, it helps a little but very little.
Pano,
Like your friend I am a computer tech, it seems I was born to do the work I do. I have great problem solving and trouble shooting skills. Once I learn something I never forget it. I freak people out with the details I remember. On the other hand I can't see pictures in my head nor remember sounds by hearing them in my head. I am a horrible speller in English, but good at grammar, I suspect because the later is rules based and the former not. I also believe that I'm on the Asperger's scale, but over the years I have somehow moved back towards the normal range (whatever that may be). My niece once tried to explain me how people feel (guess I lack the ability remember emotions too) so asked what that made me and she said that I am a pod (Invasion of the Body Snatchers).
I'm just wondering if all this is linked together and so far it looks like there might be three of us.
Try those tests.
Actually a LOT of systems are that bad and some cost as much as my house. Older recordings tend to be right and left, not stereo. Beatles are really bad.
Audio localization is based mostly on the frequency filtering of the outer ear. To a lessor extent, phase and time.
A very good question - to which I have no answer at all. But it would make a great subject for someone's graduate work!
Just FWIW, depth in the image is difficult for me if the wall behind the speakers is close. I don't hear the depth. Friends with audio systems will say "Wow, the depth is amazing!" and I just nod my head - but don't hear it. When the wall behind the speakers is far away, I can hear depth in recordings and love it. It that just subjective, or is it a physiological difference?
That is wild. My understanding is all localization is learned, normally as a toddler. The brain automatically synthesizes a 3D auditory world by decoding the HRTF alterations received by two laterally displaced ears. It takes a bit of time for the correlations to become second nature. I recall a discussion in which a forum member insisted height isn't naturally perceivable so for some maybe it never completes.
Stereo reproduction 'corrupts' the HRTF component for any sound not intended to be heard hard left or right. I always wondered if hearing fully formed stereo images from two speakers isn't another learned ability to listen past this distortion.
How precise is your localization normally?
A Pod...nah, you're Mr Spock. Everybody loves him! You know why everybody loves him? Because they can relate.
What happens when you take the stereo, room out of the experience entirely? That would be outside. Geese flying overhead. A car approaches from behind, passes on your left and continues down the road. A horsefly does a few circles around your head. A pond with a number of croaking frogs along the bank. Ocean waves crashing in front of you, fizzing water coming up just to your toes. A grove of trees filled with chirping birds or cicadas at night. Distant fireworks. Standing on an overpass as cars and trucks approach, then go underneath you. Are such outside auditory experiences "flat" also?
By "normally" do you mean not on speakers, or without having learned the stereo trick?
The finesses of stereo location of acoustic sources on a stage has surprised me. Somewhere like 2 degrees or better.
For me, no they are not flat at all. Are they for @mtidge ? Very good question.
If you can localize sound at an opera with your eyes closed, you have the ability to do the same with stereo speakers assuming they are of decent quality and set up properly. I know it seems impossible that you've never had the opportunity to hear a good system... I have trouble believing that, too, and I'm second guessing myself ... but that really is the only answer that makes sense. We have two ears... two inputs. From those two inputs our brain synthesizes localization cues from whatever those two inputs give us. You'd think that the shape of our ears would make differentiating between things directly in front of us and directly behind us easy, but it's not. With your eyes closed, have someone (or two someones) make an identical noise six feet directly in front of you and then six feet directly behind you; it's quite difficult to tell the difference, unless there are other environmental cues at play.
Soo... the stereo conundrum. How do two speakers, in two very specific locations, recreate a vast soundfield originally created at many points? The illusion relies heavily on how the original recording was done - mic placement in particular. A recording done with either two omni mics mounted on either side of a Jecklin disc, or two figure 8s in a Blumlein configuration, can eerily capture the original sound field with two microphones, and then, when those two capturing sources are fed to two speakers set up properly in a room to minimize room coloration, the results can be pretty wonderful.
Out of curiosity, to the original poster... have you ever heard a binaural recording? Do you have the same issues when listening via headphones?
I've heard plenty of speakers that had a nice natural sound, seemingly accurate frequency response, yet couldn't throw an image to save their lives. Have also heard speakers that had terribly colored sound, but imaged great. Decades ago, a friend of mine had a pair of Radio Shack towers of some kind that he added a piezo "super tweeter" to... they sounded awful.... made your ears bleed in the high end... but man, they were as 3D as they come.
In general, and yes, it's a SWEEPING generalization, but there are two types of speakers that excel at imaging. Small speakers with few drivers and small baffles, and planar speakers. I have a set of ACI LV/Sat speakers (two small satellites and an aperiodic vented dual-VC sub) I built from a kit decades ago designed by Mike Dzurko, and they image wonderfully. I also have a set of Magnepan 3.6R speakers that are absolutely spooky.
Large multi-driver towers or speakers with wide baffles are usually much more difficult to get to image coherently and convincingly. Yes, another sweeping generalization.
Not on speakers, determining location for a 'real' point sound source. That accuracy wouldn't be surprising from an adaptive perspective. Regarding depth I have run across recordings that I can choose to hear as flat or behind the speakers, suggesting a more complex relationship with reproduced sound.