Comedy of Hornresp errors.
78.82cm2 is the equivalent Sd of a 100mm, (4 inch) diaphragm, the Sd Axi2050 of the Aragorus was provided from Celestion along with the other lumped model elements you loaded in the simulation posted in #9615.
You used 200cm2 (a default parameter, IIRC) for S1 in the Hornresp model, which would be the equivalent of starting the horn with a 160mm diameter circle (over 6"), but the Axi2050 has a 50mm (2 inch) exit, only 19.63cm2. That "horn" would provide no low frequency loading, hence the rising, rather than falling HF response.
Probably a lower Fs. It's plane wave LF impedance bump is an octave or more lower than many 4" diaphragm drivers.
I have never heard the Axi2050, but I have heard the sound of aluminum 4" JBL 2440 diaphragms reaching Xmech, and replaced many of them that shattered when crossed at 500Hz using the 220 Hz cutoff JBL 2350 horns.
The Axi2050 titanium diaphragm should withstand hammering the phase plug with less damage than aluminum.
That said, I honestly don't know if the Axi2050 surround is capable of enough excursion to cause contact, but it would be easy to test at low frequency- I'd think it would start clicking at 20 Hz with under 10 volts sine wave below a conversational (60dB one meter) level.
Pink noise has equal amplitude at all frequencies, while music can be any level at any frequency.
Even with hip-hop and EDM, it's not uncommon to see peak levels in the 400-600 Hz range approaching those at 30-100 Hz, though the average could be -10 to -40 lower.
Art
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Hi Ro808, i know this heads into controversy, but i'm finding the more i split up the spectrum into separate ways, the more stunning the clarity and timbre..
My near 70 year old ears are hearing finer details than ever before from 5-way speakers...shouldn't be happening so obviously.
I think IMD, or some related unknown test, multi-tone or MTF (modulation transfer function) ,or who knows , is gonna illuminate the value of not trying to get it all into "less ways" .
I think less ways ways have been the lesser evil, until xover complexities and phase wraps could be overcome.
And i think that time is over.
Supposedly, the dcx464 and 4594He should be completely fine on a good horn to 500Hz +/- 100Hz. And i must admit they sounded great there.
It's just they sound so much better with some mids taking over to 900-1000Hz, bridging between low drivers. Maybe it's just a MEH thing, but lordy i wonder.
Art,
Again, a great piece of analysis from a consummate engineer with tons of field experience.
Again, a great piece of analysis from a consummate engineer with tons of field experience.
Good luck with that 😉
No manufacturer tends to give out much in the way of lumped element parameters for compression drivers as without some knowledge it's easy to put 2 and 2 together in a simulator and come out with 11.
I have 2x TAD TL-1603 and 8x TL-1601a NIB on stock. Then gone. This is maybe interesting to someone here who wants to build a 2-way system? Thank you.
Its so much easier to put (?) and 2 together and reach (?)
I guess my best bet is to monitor 2nd order distortion but I think with the Axi suspension distortion is unlike a dynamic woofers
Have you owned or used the Loudspeaker in your pic? Twin tad woofers side by side to be specific. We were looking for some one with actual experience with with that type of config earlier in the thread and I only found one person.
No its not, I used 20.27....Wait....Yes I did. 🤦🤦🤦
A comedy of hornresp errors....yes, but the non 2" exit is not on purpose lol!
Fs doesn't limit lf, Sd and excursion and power handling does. After that graph was posted of the various drivers with various thiele specs, I think its safe to say rigidity is still a LF factor. The lighter cones started to distortion earlier with rising spl. Thats proof I believe. The distortion rises faster in lf source with a lighter cone because its usually more flimsy.
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I think your best bet is to accept that you already own a CD more than capable of crossing at any sensible crossover point. The fact that you can measure it wide open and get 20Hz out of it on the desk without a horn and still have the distortion some distance below the fundamental should be enough.
Yes, I have 2401 and 2402 and RM-8V here to listen to while your wife visits www.outletcity.com with your credit card! 😛
We have loaded 2401 and RM-8V with new version of TL-1601b. Although components are nearly identical (RH-3 vs. TH-4001) these 2 speakers sound totally different.
I also have a pair of RM-5BC, not assembled, with latest 425Hz crossovers. These "sound" most precise.
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Hmm, what are your experiences with the side by side 2401....Have you ever listened within close proximity and have you ever had issues with comb filtering?
I know thats right! But theoretically I should have hit xmech and it never happened so I am confused as F
That makes 2 of us. I tried to ease into it and the volume started getting too loud, so I figured, why even touch xmech if I've proven that the driver can out SPL me with an XO........I'd say like to see if I can use EQ to extend the range...
I'll fix my sim and see what it says. WIth the waveguide setup, I have to let go of any XO goals.....I know that. Its still possible that the AXi2050 can go a little bit lower than the other compression drivers simply from low distortion surround and a little bit more excursion capability.
And thats why you are one of my favorite people on the board =)
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No issues in that, but they just dont jump in your face like a RM-8V does. I wish I had the RM-7 but they just dont fit through regular doors. I could lift them through balcony. Our neighbour has a large crane company and builds houses etc.
I wonder if this is Subjective speak for the difference in directivity and floor bounce a side by side vs vertical MTM would have.
The horn dissapears totally in RM-8V, its just like a big fullrange speaker. Only RH-3 can cross at 425, not TH-4001.
Yes, Peak levels, but not anything like the energy going into sub bass. If we set a system design reference point at 115db at 30hz....run a slope from there that crossed 1000hz at 105db and 20khz at 95db (Not 85db)....that will theoretically be enough headroom for mastering at 1 meter
"approaching" - I might be close but no cigar....yet I am trying to imagine 400-600hz slightly above 105db according to my headroom theoretical scale....and I'm pretty sure thats a pretty loud peak for so high in the register like, undesirably loud. Do you have any musical material to demonstrate.
lets say I'm listening at a level that brings lower bass to 95db.....the average around the mid 400-600hz in a tonally balanced source would be around 85db we'll say....... and then there might be a peak that hits 125db within 400-600hz....I'd like to see the audience experience that lmao!!!
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OK this is my fault still but....The graph is actually as it should be. My s1 was "correct" when I produced the graph. I tried producing a small waveguide, not sure why I landed where I did, but the point, was to create something where the low end was not assisted.