I've never bought a serious set of speakers, but I've listened to many.I was just surprised. Most people have purchased at least one pair of commercial speakers at some point. I tried DIY when I was young then purchased commercial then got back into DIY latter. So I have always had a commercial pair on hand even when I was young. My father had a couple of speaker pairs in the house.
Rob
Some configurations will not sound right no matter how you cross or EQ them, and a DIYer will eventually find that a speaker is going to sound like a speaker, not the real thing... until eventually they stop building conventional speakers, and understand how and why.
That last point is important. I see a lot of members asking for all the top secrets and what's the best etc, to achieve the last few percent. They will not achieve the same result that way, it's almost impossible to convey the ability like that, they need to grow into it.
Nowadays when I think of expensive diy speakers, it reminds me a bit of Fiero based Lamborghini kit cars.
I tried to make some tower speakers myself twenty years ago, had to get that hard lesson out of the way I guess!
Makes it very hard when you don’t know what you want either, I got rid of those I made before having any meaningful diy experience. I just remember them being a it muddy sounding, but who knows, they may have been ok, or even better with some work. The source wasn’t good then I know for sure.
There are lots of details that will make a difference, start missing that and you’ll lose the quality. Money alone probably won’t change that fact enough to guarantee success.
I tried to make some tower speakers myself twenty years ago, had to get that hard lesson out of the way I guess!
Makes it very hard when you don’t know what you want either, I got rid of those I made before having any meaningful diy experience. I just remember them being a it muddy sounding, but who knows, they may have been ok, or even better with some work. The source wasn’t good then I know for sure.
There are lots of details that will make a difference, start missing that and you’ll lose the quality. Money alone probably won’t change that fact enough to guarantee success.
Hi, Fellow DIY'S
I am speaking as an exception to most DIY people but having listened to nearly every worthwhile speaker system that landed in this country by attending almost all USA audio shows since yr. 2000 that DIY has MUCH to contribute. I am also fortunate to belong to two NYC, and vicinity, audio clubs---and access to all that talent, so I have a good idea what good and great systems can accomplish.
I will give good commercial speaker system manufacturers their due props for good engineering etc. but where some excel is their finishing and CNC abilities to use exotic materials ( like Wilson, Magico, Cessaro ). However, most speaker designing is NOT rocket science, like horn technology, which has been figured out over 75 yrs. ago. Most speakers are a box configuration or open baffle of some type. Contrary to some of the posters here, good speaker design programs, drivers, DSP, crossover components, reasonable priced test equipment etc. puts dedicated DIY people at an advantage to create an excellent sounding speaker system for a reasonable cost.
Of course, skill level, desire, tools, work space, budget, expectations, WAF, and most importantly--THE ROOM--where the audio system will be the major questions the DIY person must answer. Hopefully, before you spend any substantial cash. I am fortunate to have all the above.
Excellent DIY results can be had by using the designs, kits from experienced speaker builders and designers, many requiring a minimum of time and tools, as others here have stated. Any serious DIY person, today, has unlimited access to information on ANY aspect of speaker design, building. it is forums like this that contribute to the overall education of DIY people to maximize their success. So, DIY people, when in doubt about a topic ASK QUESTIONS !!
Everyone who buys, makes, a speaker system has some preconceived notions, opinions, and prejudices on the sound of their system and that is fine. However, when being compared to the sound of live instruments, voices, etc. you really need many opinions from experienced musicians, sound engineers, singers, etc. Since I live in Brooklyn, N.Y., I have done just that--seek opinions from all of the above and had 75+ people over for a listen of my system, listed below, Good luck to all DIY community !!!
Meet Joe, and his amazing DIY horn speakers - YouTube
Joe
I am speaking as an exception to most DIY people but having listened to nearly every worthwhile speaker system that landed in this country by attending almost all USA audio shows since yr. 2000 that DIY has MUCH to contribute. I am also fortunate to belong to two NYC, and vicinity, audio clubs---and access to all that talent, so I have a good idea what good and great systems can accomplish.
I will give good commercial speaker system manufacturers their due props for good engineering etc. but where some excel is their finishing and CNC abilities to use exotic materials ( like Wilson, Magico, Cessaro ). However, most speaker designing is NOT rocket science, like horn technology, which has been figured out over 75 yrs. ago. Most speakers are a box configuration or open baffle of some type. Contrary to some of the posters here, good speaker design programs, drivers, DSP, crossover components, reasonable priced test equipment etc. puts dedicated DIY people at an advantage to create an excellent sounding speaker system for a reasonable cost.
Of course, skill level, desire, tools, work space, budget, expectations, WAF, and most importantly--THE ROOM--where the audio system will be the major questions the DIY person must answer. Hopefully, before you spend any substantial cash. I am fortunate to have all the above.
Excellent DIY results can be had by using the designs, kits from experienced speaker builders and designers, many requiring a minimum of time and tools, as others here have stated. Any serious DIY person, today, has unlimited access to information on ANY aspect of speaker design, building. it is forums like this that contribute to the overall education of DIY people to maximize their success. So, DIY people, when in doubt about a topic ASK QUESTIONS !!
Everyone who buys, makes, a speaker system has some preconceived notions, opinions, and prejudices on the sound of their system and that is fine. However, when being compared to the sound of live instruments, voices, etc. you really need many opinions from experienced musicians, sound engineers, singers, etc. Since I live in Brooklyn, N.Y., I have done just that--seek opinions from all of the above and had 75+ people over for a listen of my system, listed below, Good luck to all DIY community !!!
Meet Joe, and his amazing DIY horn speakers - YouTube
Joe
....Given the cost of the drivers that Pida used, if this system were put into production it would probably have a retail price of $22,000 to $30,000.
Given the measured performance, I suspect it would compete very well in that price range...
My point is that there is absolutely no base for a speculation like that. They may indeed sound wonderful so I'm not going to argue that they don't. If you would like me to risk buying them from you based on those measurements I'd say OK, I'm willing to risk the price which is a half of what drivers costed. Deal?
Warm Regards,
I saw that video before . Nice work really and you're right. Take Edgar Salad bowl trax horn with 2441 put a single cap and a resistor across the driver and you have a linear source 500Hz to 10khz . Get truncated pipe with 15" put single coil to form a filter and you get a matching midbass 80-500 .Mix in some cheap tweeter and in a few hours of work you will get a system which will shame a lot of high dollar propositions in many aspects but this thread do not discuss systems like yours.
Also my experience with audio clubs and guest listeners is not as rosy as yours. Most people is just too polite to tell you your creation sucks, BUT they will share it with others once they leave your room. They will compliment the sound and eat your cookies, drink your beer and talk over the music the whole time of their visit. I witnessed this so many times.
All the best
Also my experience with audio clubs and guest listeners is not as rosy as yours. Most people is just too polite to tell you your creation sucks, BUT they will share it with others once they leave your room. They will compliment the sound and eat your cookies, drink your beer and talk over the music the whole time of their visit. I witnessed this so many times.
All the best
I just read this on Wikipedia.
" In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as social media (Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.), a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog), with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others' perception. This is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or manipulating a political process. Even so, Internet trolling can also be defined as purposefully causing confusion or harm to other users online, for no reason at all. "
I am finished with this thread..,. its been real, and its been great, but it aint been real great.
" In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as social media (Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.), a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog), with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others' perception. This is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or manipulating a political process. Even so, Internet trolling can also be defined as purposefully causing confusion or harm to other users online, for no reason at all. "
I am finished with this thread..,. its been real, and its been great, but it aint been real great.
I know exactly what you mean and it's unfortunate that trolls can redirect a discussion to the point of it being not only worthless, but unpleasant to follow.
I'll probably keep looking at it just in case something useful comes up, but I might drop off as well if things keep going the same way they have been recently.
I'll probably keep looking at it just in case something useful comes up, but I might drop off as well if things keep going the same way they have been recently.
[
I am finished with this thread..,. its been real, and its been great, but it aint been real great.[/QUOTE]
Oh stay, I will go if you refer to me. It's not much of a thread anyway and I'm sorry for off hand remarks. I don't have a success story to tell but if you do that's great and it really shouldn't matter what I say because it's a solitary hobby . Good audio system can provide almost physical pleasure very much comparable to other life's pleasures and not related to higher level intellectual satisfaction from a musical content. That's why it can be so addictive. Once you explain it to the neophytes who are stunned by the amount of money some drop at audio equipment they understand it or at least those who have passions in their life.
I am finished with this thread..,. its been real, and its been great, but it aint been real great.[/QUOTE]
Oh stay, I will go if you refer to me. It's not much of a thread anyway and I'm sorry for off hand remarks. I don't have a success story to tell but if you do that's great and it really shouldn't matter what I say because it's a solitary hobby . Good audio system can provide almost physical pleasure very much comparable to other life's pleasures and not related to higher level intellectual satisfaction from a musical content. That's why it can be so addictive. Once you explain it to the neophytes who are stunned by the amount of money some drop at audio equipment they understand it or at least those who have passions in their life.
The point regarding technology is very important in case of DIY horns that require lots of computation (like FEM etc.), and could take days to complete without powerful computers.
Fully agree with the above, as you're the only one responsible for your choices/decisions. So, go ahead and get your coffee in parts, but only if you're sure about you abilities to make a better coffee yourself.
When one chooses to DIY, he saves the money he would otherwise be charged for the following:
1) Knowledge/Design/Documentation - Big money is spent on designing, preparing white papers, patenting etc.
2) Time - Design engineers are paid for their time spent in making / iterating various designs for the company.
3) Effort - Not substantial, as most manufacturing efforts are mechanised these days.
4) Testing - It costs money to test/validate designs and get certifications (like Dolby or THX).
5) Advertisting - Money is spent on TV / magazine ads.
6) Marketing/Distribution - Money spent on transport, import duties, costs of operation of showrooms etc.
7) Packaging - Not significant, as DIYer is charged for packaging of parts separately.
8) Warranty - A portion of the price is always against possible claims of damage/ malfunction etc.
9) Brand value - A good portion of the price in most cases.
10) Taxes like VAT etc. - You maybe taxed for parts, but those are usually less than the taxes on the whole.
11) Fitting / Installation etc.
So, I think it's OK to have your doubts when a DIY speaker does not save you a lot of money. I prefer to not involve the costs of room treatments here, as those apply to all speakers in general.
Besides, I would also like to point out that there are at least two grades of commercial products: consumer and professional. And it is the consumer market (not professional) that usually contains the design compromised, shiny products (and sparse data) that several members have pointed out as being faulty, mediocre or thereabouts.
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Thanks for the great inputs everybody. So can we agree to fact that expensive (more than 10 000eur in parts) DIY speaker is bad ( risky at least) road to achieve top level performance for SUBJECTIVE listening pleasure comparing to great comercial offerings ?
I have read my first post and I think I have been inded too vague specifying problem. I do not claim that DIY speaker are not able to achieve same level technical performance. I know they can. And they do. And generaly speaking DIY speakers have flatter FR, lower discortions than comercial ones. I would like to comapre DIY speakers with profesional studio speakers- they have many similarities on performance levels.
I think in general home high end speakers build by manufcturers do not target to reach maximum technical performance. I have very expensive speakers which measures quite badly. up to the point of 6db dips and 4db peaks in FR. but they do sound very good. not because tonality coloration, but because other things thry offer.
I would not agree that DIY have poor resale value, you can easily sell DIY speekaers for 30% of its price(or equel 50% price of drivers) its the comercial ones that have that. I have bought 54 000eur MSPR speaker which i didnt heard(heard its smaller model same line) but god great discount (nearly 6K) it was my fault that I didnt heard it before ordering. it was bad not matter how much I setup them. I ended them selling for 18 000eur minus ebay fees. and it took half an year. I hoped to get 35K at least as they were new even in protective wraping. I belive buyers of second hand are clever - they pays 50-60 and even 70% of MSRP but.. only when speaker is great sounding in its price range.
so looses in % can be same in both cases. depend son how well accepted speakers by global audiophile community. My leason is learned- I never will buy any comercial speakers (even for largest discount) which i will not heard in my enviroment. on the other hand I saved some labour. in most DIY case speakers should be dismuounted and drivers sold separately.
Objective discusion and arguments can be done only within technical aspects of speakers, not subjective sonic perceptions. . I have yet to find anyone plunging 10K+eur for technical aspects on comercial offerings. Most want use speakers for listening( not measuring or mastering ) sessions.
I have read my first post and I think I have been inded too vague specifying problem. I do not claim that DIY speaker are not able to achieve same level technical performance. I know they can. And they do. And generaly speaking DIY speakers have flatter FR, lower discortions than comercial ones. I would like to comapre DIY speakers with profesional studio speakers- they have many similarities on performance levels.
I think in general home high end speakers build by manufcturers do not target to reach maximum technical performance. I have very expensive speakers which measures quite badly. up to the point of 6db dips and 4db peaks in FR. but they do sound very good. not because tonality coloration, but because other things thry offer.
I would not agree that DIY have poor resale value, you can easily sell DIY speekaers for 30% of its price(or equel 50% price of drivers) its the comercial ones that have that. I have bought 54 000eur MSPR speaker which i didnt heard(heard its smaller model same line) but god great discount (nearly 6K) it was my fault that I didnt heard it before ordering. it was bad not matter how much I setup them. I ended them selling for 18 000eur minus ebay fees. and it took half an year. I hoped to get 35K at least as they were new even in protective wraping. I belive buyers of second hand are clever - they pays 50-60 and even 70% of MSRP but.. only when speaker is great sounding in its price range.
so looses in % can be same in both cases. depend son how well accepted speakers by global audiophile community. My leason is learned- I never will buy any comercial speakers (even for largest discount) which i will not heard in my enviroment. on the other hand I saved some labour. in most DIY case speakers should be dismuounted and drivers sold separately.
Objective discusion and arguments can be done only within technical aspects of speakers, not subjective sonic perceptions. . I have yet to find anyone plunging 10K+eur for technical aspects on comercial offerings. Most want use speakers for listening( not measuring or mastering ) sessions.
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I think this thread would benefit from more informative posts. Far more infirmative than it has been up till now.
If i understand the message here, the claim is: be wary of high priced internet DIY kits in the speaker world. You might not get what you paid for.
I find it strange that the OP does indeed agrees to build these kits for his clientele. Despite the fact that between the lines, he brags about his own achievements in speaker building, especially when done on a professional level. Uhum. So why not educate or advise these poor people instead?
He won't tell which kits weren't worth the price of admission. But he will gladly build any of them for you.
I'd say: if there are kits out there that aren't any good, it would be good to warn others about that specific kit and stop/prevent others from spending hard earned cash.
The current line of posts only seem to be lined up to derail and undermine all higher priced kits in the market. Suggesting they are not worth it, without even disclosing which ones or where that higher price starts.
I'm not a kit builder, but there are plenty here. There are plenty of people enjoying that way of our DIY hobby. This whole thread isn't of benefit to them without being a lot more specific.
Tell me if I read this thread wrongly...
I think it belongs in the lounge.
I see the OP is finding out that part about being more specific. I would say it isn't specific enough without starting a new discussion about which expensive model performed so dreadful to begin with. We could discus the design and may even be of assistance to make his former clients get more performance out of them with a few tweaks.
The thread would also benefit to name a few trusted DIY kit sites, models or designers for people to turn to.
Creating fear for kit building isn't the way forward i would think.
If i understand the message here, the claim is: be wary of high priced internet DIY kits in the speaker world. You might not get what you paid for.
I find it strange that the OP does indeed agrees to build these kits for his clientele. Despite the fact that between the lines, he brags about his own achievements in speaker building, especially when done on a professional level. Uhum. So why not educate or advise these poor people instead?
He won't tell which kits weren't worth the price of admission. But he will gladly build any of them for you.
I'd say: if there are kits out there that aren't any good, it would be good to warn others about that specific kit and stop/prevent others from spending hard earned cash.
The current line of posts only seem to be lined up to derail and undermine all higher priced kits in the market. Suggesting they are not worth it, without even disclosing which ones or where that higher price starts.
I'm not a kit builder, but there are plenty here. There are plenty of people enjoying that way of our DIY hobby. This whole thread isn't of benefit to them without being a lot more specific.
Tell me if I read this thread wrongly...
I think it belongs in the lounge.
I see the OP is finding out that part about being more specific. I would say it isn't specific enough without starting a new discussion about which expensive model performed so dreadful to begin with. We could discus the design and may even be of assistance to make his former clients get more performance out of them with a few tweaks.
The thread would also benefit to name a few trusted DIY kit sites, models or designers for people to turn to.
Creating fear for kit building isn't the way forward i would think.
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I'm non specific with a reason. To many threads on our local forum went very bad because of "specific things" all discussions grows to personal assoults or trolling. Even now, when I am not being specific some people take it as personal assoult of their skills/abilities or try to inspect thread starter thinking why he opened this thread(personal benefit for selling his owns kits etc)
I do not build or design kits,neither sell them. "the client" did not pay a single cent for my help of assembling this KIT. I just helped for the curriosity and because i like to help.
I have job incomes form audio but its not related to DIY.
I came here to share my personal, subjective, opinion about diy projects available on internet. I think this is my first thread I have opened in speakers thread in.. 18years. I am here for my hobby (amplifiers and dac)
If at least one target person will read this thread I will be happy for helping avoid frustrations and loss of faith in Audio or DIY audio.
So to conlude.
Smple message is - LISTEN before build expensive DIY project not vice versa.
More advanced message - its hard to beat good well acepted by audiophile cummunity expensive comercial offerings.
all this is valid if you have realistics, objective personality. things gets much less complicated when high self esteem is present. I have also seen direct relation between engineering performance abilities and humble personalities.
If somebody do no like those two messages and sees this as their personal assault or my own marketing strategies and feels better whsn investigate WHY i open this thread I can do nothing about it, just accept and enjoy reading.
I do not build or design kits,neither sell them. "the client" did not pay a single cent for my help of assembling this KIT. I just helped for the curriosity and because i like to help.
I have job incomes form audio but its not related to DIY.
I came here to share my personal, subjective, opinion about diy projects available on internet. I think this is my first thread I have opened in speakers thread in.. 18years. I am here for my hobby (amplifiers and dac)
If at least one target person will read this thread I will be happy for helping avoid frustrations and loss of faith in Audio or DIY audio.
So to conlude.
Smple message is - LISTEN before build expensive DIY project not vice versa.
More advanced message - its hard to beat good well acepted by audiophile cummunity expensive comercial offerings.
all this is valid if you have realistics, objective personality. things gets much less complicated when high self esteem is present. I have also seen direct relation between engineering performance abilities and humble personalities.
If somebody do no like those two messages and sees this as their personal assault or my own marketing strategies and feels better whsn investigate WHY i open this thread I can do nothing about it, just accept and enjoy reading.
I think everybody's experienced bad products regardless of the category or application, it is fallacious to paint all products with the same brush.
I personally never made a single speaker till four years ago. A few in my youth, but then it was just using drivers with off-the-shelf crossovers.
As a result, I went through maybe 8-10 different commercial speakers at different price points before I ever did any speaker DIY. My focus was electronics and amplification. And I may have heard over 50 different speakers in audition settings and wherever the amps were being installed.
But I believe that what I do make / have made now competes very well with products twice the price, at least. Maybe more. I've heard plenty of very expensive speakers and a lot of budget monsters, and I know what you get in the market at various price points. It is true that at the low end, it's difficult to match commercial offerings.
I also live in a country with an extremely poor exchange rate and very high duty, resulting in unreasonably expensive products. This may of course depend on where you are and where your sources are.
I don't agree with the thread title - but I can say that you can get good results if you listen carefully, apply diligently, and free yourself from bias and premature judgement, you can get good results quickly enough. But you have to put in the time. Lots of time.
I personally never made a single speaker till four years ago. A few in my youth, but then it was just using drivers with off-the-shelf crossovers.
As a result, I went through maybe 8-10 different commercial speakers at different price points before I ever did any speaker DIY. My focus was electronics and amplification. And I may have heard over 50 different speakers in audition settings and wherever the amps were being installed.
But I believe that what I do make / have made now competes very well with products twice the price, at least. Maybe more. I've heard plenty of very expensive speakers and a lot of budget monsters, and I know what you get in the market at various price points. It is true that at the low end, it's difficult to match commercial offerings.
I also live in a country with an extremely poor exchange rate and very high duty, resulting in unreasonably expensive products. This may of course depend on where you are and where your sources are.
I don't agree with the thread title - but I can say that you can get good results if you listen carefully, apply diligently, and free yourself from bias and premature judgement, you can get good results quickly enough. But you have to put in the time. Lots of time.
There you are.
@ Wesayso, we obviously will not start a DIY kit rant here. We could however write down how unexperienced builders should select a good kit without them being in the position to audition them.
Btw, ages ago I knew a shop that actually offered customers tryouts of the kit at home. I think that shop still offers this service. Over here distance is less of an issue and serious customers took that trouble more than once. Sometimes wrecked the speakers as they took the opportunity for a home party though...
Thanks for the reply to my questions.
The reason for me to post something is that I am certain we have a numerous amount of kit builders here. Derailing their trust in kits in general isn't going to help. I still don't particularly like the secrecy, as it would be good to know who or what we are talking about.
Can you state, or have you seen any kits that do add the value? The ones that are worth it to build?
Thanks again for explaining your role in the building of said speaker. To me it seemed like you were willing to build a kit, that wasn't worth being build.
Maybe one more question:
Can you list some? "well accepted by the audiophile community" might not trigger a lot of confidence for the more 'science inspired' crowd.
Are we talking the school of Harmon or more along the lines of B&W...
The reason for me to post something is that I am certain we have a numerous amount of kit builders here. Derailing their trust in kits in general isn't going to help. I still don't particularly like the secrecy, as it would be good to know who or what we are talking about.
Can you state, or have you seen any kits that do add the value? The ones that are worth it to build?
Thanks again for explaining your role in the building of said speaker. To me it seemed like you were willing to build a kit, that wasn't worth being build.
Maybe one more question:
Can you list some? "well accepted by the audiophile community" might not trigger a lot of confidence for the more 'science inspired' crowd.
Are we talking the school of Harmon or more along the lines of B&W...