Instead of measuring, why not compare what you HEAR at the start of the cable to what comes out?
AES E-Library >> Absolute Listening Tests-Further Progress
This paper has loadsa stuff still not appreciated by today's speaker designers .. especially the Room Interface Profile.
But for this thread, our DBLTs showed that the best cable, by far, was Lightning Conductor stripped from Wharfedale churches in God's own county, Yorkshire.
A poor second was the original Monster Cable, probably cos it had more Cu than the other commercial cables tested. Some of the braided cables then in fashion showed really nasty peaks in HF response and were easily detected.
For those wishing to experiment with insulation, we used British Sellotape.
PS. We measured THD going in to THD going out too ... but the DBLTs were the real revelation.
AES E-Library >> Absolute Listening Tests-Further Progress
This paper has loadsa stuff still not appreciated by today's speaker designers .. especially the Room Interface Profile.
But for this thread, our DBLTs showed that the best cable, by far, was Lightning Conductor stripped from Wharfedale churches in God's own county, Yorkshire.
A poor second was the original Monster Cable, probably cos it had more Cu than the other commercial cables tested. Some of the braided cables then in fashion showed really nasty peaks in HF response and were easily detected.
For those wishing to experiment with insulation, we used British Sellotape.
PS. We measured THD going in to THD going out too ... but the DBLTs were the real revelation.
Ok. As a beginner DIYer.. my perspective on this..
Any conductor moving in a magnetic field induces currents. Only thing is if the cable is being vibrated vs what field? Earth's magnetic? Also no data on current involved.
If a cable in totality is vibrating and creating a current then any cable isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference unless it's shielded.
Now if they're saying that the wire strands themselves are vibrating within the cable's own magnetic fields.. well if you think about it - all the strands currents are flowing the same way thus the magnetic field differences are low compared to each other and the second point it's unlikely that those small differences are going to appear above the noise floor of the amp and speakers..
I suspect this is only applicable for the CERN collider sensors. So for audio - BS.
Skin depth is relevant to high frequencies such as radio frequencies over 1MHz.. It is not relevant for <100kHz unless you have a load of EMI noise on there.. which you should really use differential if the noise is so bad it's going through the single ended cable shielding.. Your audio amp should not be wasting power amplifying out of the audio range.. so this is a load of baloney.
If you're using the cable for 512 DSD at 24MHz then you can worry about skin but even then it's low enough to not cause problems like GHz..
It's true that cables have capacitance from insulation, and that has effects. However you've got to have a long cable run for that to be a problem and at that point you're designing the endpoints to remove that - using a normal amp output is dumb.
I suspect that the material between the inductor and shield (making a capacitor) is more important to reducing this than simply the thickness. In reality I suspect that a capacitor with a larger gap (thicker 'insulation' between the plates) is likely to result in a worse (ie lower) electrical effect. Put two plates a meter apart and put any insulation material, the capacitive effect is likely to be zero thus better than having plates close together with air between them..
So thickness - hmm it smells a bit BS to me.. the material is more likely to be what counts.
Any conductor moving in a magnetic field induces currents. Only thing is if the cable is being vibrated vs what field? Earth's magnetic? Also no data on current involved.
If a cable in totality is vibrating and creating a current then any cable isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference unless it's shielded.
Now if they're saying that the wire strands themselves are vibrating within the cable's own magnetic fields.. well if you think about it - all the strands currents are flowing the same way thus the magnetic field differences are low compared to each other and the second point it's unlikely that those small differences are going to appear above the noise floor of the amp and speakers..
I suspect this is only applicable for the CERN collider sensors. So for audio - BS.
Skin depth is relevant to high frequencies such as radio frequencies over 1MHz.. It is not relevant for <100kHz unless you have a load of EMI noise on there.. which you should really use differential if the noise is so bad it's going through the single ended cable shielding.. Your audio amp should not be wasting power amplifying out of the audio range.. so this is a load of baloney.
If you're using the cable for 512 DSD at 24MHz then you can worry about skin but even then it's low enough to not cause problems like GHz..
It's true that cables have capacitance from insulation, and that has effects. However you've got to have a long cable run for that to be a problem and at that point you're designing the endpoints to remove that - using a normal amp output is dumb.
I suspect that the material between the inductor and shield (making a capacitor) is more important to reducing this than simply the thickness. In reality I suspect that a capacitor with a larger gap (thicker 'insulation' between the plates) is likely to result in a worse (ie lower) electrical effect. Put two plates a meter apart and put any insulation material, the capacitive effect is likely to be zero thus better than having plates close together with air between them..
So thickness - hmm it smells a bit BS to me.. the material is more likely to be what counts.
Audiophile - every electron is sacred.
I'm sure monty python did a sketch about that..
I didn't say we concluded that. I just said we did the measurements.
There are a number of possible explanations but I didn't offer any .. except for Monster Cable being better than the other commercial cables cos possibly more Cu.
The results of the DBLTs are the important ones. Any 'theory' must explain these and I don't think anything offered so far on this thread really qualifies.
BTW, we did a whole series of tests on the Audibility of various speaker distortions too which are in several AES papers. Some of them are hidden under strange titles. Look up references to Peter Fryer .. especially those by the false prophets, Olive & Toole. Our work predates theirs by a decade or more.
DBLT: Double Blind Listening Tests
Well, you have a very (relatively) non-linear load in the form of a speaker. You place a complex impedance with is more linear in series with it (the cable; assuming for the discussion the amplifier is distortion free).
Then, if you measure or hear a difference, it is illogical to think that the cable distorts.
You might be able to measure cable distortion if you use a very linear load instead of the loudspeaker.
Jan
Then, if you measure or hear a difference, it is illogical to think that the cable distorts.
You might be able to measure cable distortion if you use a very linear load instead of the loudspeaker.
Jan
academia50
Each one experiences life and believes what they experienced as they please.
I use cables as I posted above for just one reason. I'm tired of people who claim physics is broken whilst what they watch and listen to is only possible because of the very same physics that is apparently broken.
The physics that defines how FM tuners, record players, network players, amplifiers, speakers, streaming audio and video streams work, also defines how the cables that connect those devices work.
Each one experiences life and believes what they experienced as they please.
I use cables as I posted above for just one reason. I'm tired of people who claim physics is broken whilst what they watch and listen to is only possible because of the very same physics that is apparently broken.
The physics that defines how FM tuners, record players, network players, amplifiers, speakers, streaming audio and video streams work, also defines how the cables that connect those devices work.
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OK, so here's a real example from consumer electronics. There is a device where an extraneous signal added by the device measures at around 0.001% or -60dB. The innate distortion of the device is ~1%, so the extra 0.001% making 1.001% total is obviously inaudible, right?
The component in question is a cassette deck and the extraneous signal is tape noise.
Well that would be my 'explanation' if I was so inclined.
At the end of the day, surely what you are interested in is whether the cable introduces a change; whether it is non-linear (eg THD/IMD) or linear (eg frequency response) distortion. Of course, yus pedants may disagree
If you are comparing cables, I suspect Lightning Conductor (usually 1" x 1/8" Cu bus bar) still sets the gold (Cu?) standard in that ... what goes in is what comes out.
There's a whole bunch of issues I haven't mentioned in carrying out the 'simple' test in our AES paper. eg what power amp should you use? It's VERY difficult to have a 0.01% THD amp unconditionally stable with load without an output inductor/Zobel. That immediately makes the source Z presented to the speaker wonky even without a cable. What speaker to use? There are speakers which present a more linear load to the amp but these are rare and still become non-linear at some frequencies.
Or to say it in other words;
One should not ask the question IF something distorts, but what the expected order of magnitude or significance is of the levels of the distortion.
If there is an order of magnitude (or two) difference, to contribution is basically non existent.
That being said, there are other types of signals out there that a lot more prone to distortion.
In the end everything will distort (read; show non-linear behavior).
The question is how significant it is in a certain context.
Unfortunately even many engineers seem to ignore that question.
From what I read in this thread ( and not this only one ), it is clear some people do not know enough about physics to talk about it.
They just know a little about it to believe anything ( a sucker is born everyday ) and use physics to ridiculously try to prove their points.
Physics is taught in school, including to those sleeping awake in the back rows.
They just know a little about it to believe anything ( a sucker is born everyday ) and use physics to ridiculously try to prove their points.
Physics is taught in school, including to those sleeping awake in the back rows.
The biggest issues with these kind of problems, is that people overlook certain aspects of physics.
Or better; science.
In particular neuroscience and biology.
"I hear a difference, so it must be caused by physics and electronics".
Yet, even at high-school physics class, first or second year, kids are being taught to never trust the devices you're measuring with out of the box and always double question your findings.
Since the measuring device we are talking about at this moment, are our ears incl our brains, I always find it strange that the measuring device itself (read: ourselves) is not being questioned AT ALL?
And if you want to investigate that aspect of the chain, one has to dive into neuroscience and biology as well.
Or better; science.
In particular neuroscience and biology.
"I hear a difference, so it must be caused by physics and electronics".
Yet, even at high-school physics class, first or second year, kids are being taught to never trust the devices you're measuring with out of the box and always double question your findings.
Since the measuring device we are talking about at this moment, are our ears incl our brains, I always find it strange that the measuring device itself (read: ourselves) is not being questioned AT ALL?
And if you want to investigate that aspect of the chain, one has to dive into neuroscience and biology as well.
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Yes that is true, but you also want to know if it is the cable or the fact that the speaker now introduces more or less distortion, because it has gotten some series impedance (the R, L, C of the cable).
If it is the speaker, you can't say, this cable is better or worse because with another speaker it may be completely different.
That why I say, measure not with a speaker load but with a very linear load resistor. Then you are reasonable sure that any new distortion comes from the cable.
But I understand it's not a very attractive measurement method because very likely you won't measure anything
Jan
You WILL measure a difference at cable ends, (even with a linear load) , simply because you are creating a voltage divider.
But I see no mechanism whatsoever which might create distortion.
As of:
You still/always have a voltage divider.
Lower resistance values involved but that does not change the basic principle.
Inductance will be same, and capacitance depends on conductor separation.
Plus slight influence from Sellotape dielectric properties, of course, if you want to nitpick.
But I see no mechanism whatsoever which might create distortion.
As of:
not at all.
You still/always have a voltage divider.
Lower resistance values involved but that does not change the basic principle.
Inductance will be same, and capacitance depends on conductor separation.
Plus slight influence from Sellotape dielectric properties, of course, if you want to nitpick.
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