I was contemplating a dual Faital Pro 10PR320 as a 2.5-way with XT1086 and BMS 5530ND. The Faital seem to be quite clean, and the BMS as well.
Been looking at the Selenium D220Ti (screwed onto an Eminence 10CX) which could be an option for you:
Dayton H812 horn + Selenium D220Ti – AmpsLab
The site has some nice reviews that could provide good info (10/12" + CD/horn 2-ways):
Testing New Drivers – AmpsLab
Dayton H812 horn + Selenium D220Ti – AmpsLab
The site has some nice reviews that could provide good info (10/12" + CD/horn 2-ways):
Testing New Drivers – AmpsLab
As far as I understand, if that you're using a sub-system anyway?
Is that just two fronts or a complete multi-sub system?
In the way it is being set up in the picture right now, the lower end of de mid-woofer isn't so important at all.
This is because the stereo symmetric position of the subs.
So therefor you can put up the crossover point pretty high, up to 150Hz no problem.
I have seen people using it even higher.
If you can add another sub for the opposite wall, an higher crossover between subs and mids can even be very beneficial for tackling those nasty standing waves.
Anyway, that being said, I would just go for a 10 inch with as many demodulation rings as possible.
Just look at the impedance graph, this has to be flat and as little blips as possible.
Next is try to find one that does have a nice and even frequency response.
As for the compression driver, I think the 18 Sound HD1050 can't be beaten. (well, maybe in price)
Nice and low Fs (700Hz), one impedance peak en nice response.
I wouldn't go for the known Selenium 220 driver, these days there are much better alternatives.
Also, don't forget to have a look at Sica, LaVoce and SB Audience, they have quite some nice woofers for a good price.
For home use, even a Dayton RS270 is a pretty nice woofer to work with.
Is that just two fronts or a complete multi-sub system?
In the way it is being set up in the picture right now, the lower end of de mid-woofer isn't so important at all.
This is because the stereo symmetric position of the subs.
So therefor you can put up the crossover point pretty high, up to 150Hz no problem.
I have seen people using it even higher.
If you can add another sub for the opposite wall, an higher crossover between subs and mids can even be very beneficial for tackling those nasty standing waves.
Anyway, that being said, I would just go for a 10 inch with as many demodulation rings as possible.
Just look at the impedance graph, this has to be flat and as little blips as possible.
Next is try to find one that does have a nice and even frequency response.
As for the compression driver, I think the 18 Sound HD1050 can't be beaten. (well, maybe in price)
Nice and low Fs (700Hz), one impedance peak en nice response.
I wouldn't go for the known Selenium 220 driver, these days there are much better alternatives.
Also, don't forget to have a look at Sica, LaVoce and SB Audience, they have quite some nice woofers for a good price.
For home use, even a Dayton RS270 is a pretty nice woofer to work with.
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From looking at some of the data, the presence of a demodulation ring says very little about the objective performance of a woofer. Is does not guarantee low distortion. I’d just rather see some 3rd party measurements to confirm what’s going on. Look at 10PR320 for example: no rings, but still distortion is quite low (I linked it earlier), even in bass. Impedance is also quite flat with Le of .57. It will be pretty easy to find some woofers with rings that do a lot worse.
Hard to find any objective data on these. There is some Sica to be found, but very little LaVoce and SB.
I actually find the opposite, data clearly shows that drivers will perform excellent when inductance is low and freq resp as well as impedance graphs are smooth.
Demodulation rings will improve by definition, if the distortion shoots up there is something else going wrong.
Second to that, you don't always need additional data when motor designs of certain loudspeakers are (close to) identical.
Since they basically ARE identical. There is no magical things going on here.
This is especially true for mids .
When used for lower frequencies, this is a whole different story, since the vast amount of distortion and non-linear behavior comes from non-linear behavior of the compliance, BL(x) and Le(x).
So some suspensions simply just behave differently.
For just mids, freq resp is king, if that is is nice and smooth, there is not reason for distortion to shoot sky high.
Btw, a low Le always means some kind of demodulation, sometimes they just don't tell in the datasheet.
Look at the datasheet of the LaVoce NBASS08-20 for example.
The coil former sometimes already acts as a demodulation ring, I have even seen that the frame/basket can help with it a little.
This can easily been seen from the inductance of drivers without any demodulation.
Or just be roughly estimated by calculating the inductance with the coil diameter, DC resistance etc.
A speaker with a similar voice coil simply has to have a similar inductance, there is no way around it.
Within a certain margin obviously (thickness of wire, CCAW, shape of wire etc etc)
edit: btw, I am familiar with the website you linked before.
All I can say, is to take the data there with a grain of salt.
They don't show the harmonics for example. Higher 2nd order distortion isn't so bad at all for example.
They also don't always compare well with measurements done by Vance Dickason's TestBench measurements in Voice Coil Magazine, or other 3rd party measurements.
Btw, PRO-drivers are done at 104dB at TestBench! (that obviously also leads to higher distortion levels)
Demodulation rings will improve by definition, if the distortion shoots up there is something else going wrong.
Second to that, you don't always need additional data when motor designs of certain loudspeakers are (close to) identical.
Since they basically ARE identical. There is no magical things going on here.
This is especially true for mids .
When used for lower frequencies, this is a whole different story, since the vast amount of distortion and non-linear behavior comes from non-linear behavior of the compliance, BL(x) and Le(x).
So some suspensions simply just behave differently.
For just mids, freq resp is king, if that is is nice and smooth, there is not reason for distortion to shoot sky high.
Btw, a low Le always means some kind of demodulation, sometimes they just don't tell in the datasheet.
Look at the datasheet of the LaVoce NBASS08-20 for example.
The coil former sometimes already acts as a demodulation ring, I have even seen that the frame/basket can help with it a little.
This can easily been seen from the inductance of drivers without any demodulation.
Or just be roughly estimated by calculating the inductance with the coil diameter, DC resistance etc.
A speaker with a similar voice coil simply has to have a similar inductance, there is no way around it.
Within a certain margin obviously (thickness of wire, CCAW, shape of wire etc etc)
edit: btw, I am familiar with the website you linked before.
All I can say, is to take the data there with a grain of salt.
They don't show the harmonics for example. Higher 2nd order distortion isn't so bad at all for example.
They also don't always compare well with measurements done by Vance Dickason's TestBench measurements in Voice Coil Magazine, or other 3rd party measurements.
Btw, PRO-drivers are done at 104dB at TestBench! (that obviously also leads to higher distortion levels)
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btw, little addition to my previous post.
To be very honest, really bad performing 10 inch mids are very rare in my experience.
(unless it's obvious from the freq resp and impedance)
Especially when used inside a living room SPL levels, which is a complete piece of cake for most of the woofers here.
104dB nominal is already very loud. Not recommended on a daily basis.
Were the big boys shine, is when they are being used in real world PRO solutions.
When some kind of rave music is pumping out for hours on end, in rain and wind or in some kind of funky dark underground pub.
The big boys also shine better in just pure delivery in production and consistency.
But that is not an issue for a single DIY project.
To be very honest, really bad performing 10 inch mids are very rare in my experience.
(unless it's obvious from the freq resp and impedance)
Especially when used inside a living room SPL levels, which is a complete piece of cake for most of the woofers here.
104dB nominal is already very loud. Not recommended on a daily basis.
Were the big boys shine, is when they are being used in real world PRO solutions.
When some kind of rave music is pumping out for hours on end, in rain and wind or in some kind of funky dark underground pub.
The big boys also shine better in just pure delivery in production and consistency.
But that is not an issue for a single DIY project.
Sure, for a given design, yes.
Buy how do we know? It often can’t (easily) be deduced from the datasheets. Nor is it easy to compare different designs because data is mostly missing.
That proves my whole point, really..
Really? From what I’ve seen they mostly correlate quite well. But having multiple sources is always better. And comparing sources is dangerous business anyway.
Well, first of, from the concept of the fact that if things are basically the same, they will (and must) perform the same or very similar.
You can find this out by closely examining the construction of the speaker.
But I guess more important, is to do a little thought experiment and think of what elements will and can cause non-linear behavior.
And for just mid frequency (say roughly 2 x Fs and up), that is not an awful lot.
At the point we are out of the piston area of the woofer.
Meaning the BL, compliance and such won't have much (no) effect.
So any other issues will come from (local) resonances in the cone, surround resonances (the well known dip) , cone break-up etc etc
All of which can be seen in either de freq resp, impedance or both.
Cone break-ups can be a bit deceiving.
For example, aluminum cone breakups will show already lower in the distortion and are mostly uneven order.
One of the reasons that this website isn't helping us much unfortunately.
Now I am thinking about it, Le(x) also won't effect much, so maybe demodulation rings won't help us much either, and is only beneficial when a woofer is being used full-range?
What is CAN do (very well), is making a much nicer frequency response, since the Le itself isn't fighting us.
Mean reason why they are being used a lot in little full-range drivers.
Most of the time the Le will bring down the frequency response quicker than the Mmd (or Mms)
So this will give as some more wiggle room.
From my experience there is quite a decent correlation between how smooth and straight the frequency response and impedance graph are versus distortion.
Or in other words, I have never really seen one that does the opposite.
Obviously that is no 100% hard proof of anything, so if you feel less anxious going for speakers that have been measured, feel free.
But it also has been shown that a good frequency response and directivity are far more important.
Compared to 5 or 6 inch woofers, on average the distortion levels of most 10 inch woofers are already much better for the same SPL.
You can basically also already see that in all these distortion measurements, the differences are small.
After a while it becomes a bit like pixel peeping on distortion.
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So I guess what I would like to add, is to find a woofer that as roughly an Fs that is twice as low as the crossover frequency.
But for 10 inch, I think a little higher would also be still just fine.
(For smaller drivers that is usually 3 times Fs if you would like to go for minimum distortion levels)
Btw, the reason why I was opting for something like a RS270, is because that woofer is well documented and quite some similar projects have been build with it.
I also think that the FaitalPro woofer is fine as well.
But for 10 inch, I think a little higher would also be still just fine.
(For smaller drivers that is usually 3 times Fs if you would like to go for minimum distortion levels)
Btw, the reason why I was opting for something like a RS270, is because that woofer is well documented and quite some similar projects have been build with it.
I also think that the FaitalPro woofer is fine as well.
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But not from a few crappy pictures on a datasheet and some vague marketing terms. Very little people have the time and resources to buy all potential candidates and dissect them. And even then.. just measure them, no need to look at the construction. So all we have is what a bunch of “idiots” on the internet cobbled together. Oh well, it is what it is..
One other possible candidate for the list might be Beyma 10MC700Nd. It did very well in the 10” mid bass test here on the forum. It might have some other interesting candidates as well. Le is on the high side though.
I think from most speakers there are decent pictures to look at.
But to be very honest, if you just find some woofers with all the things I said before.
I personally think you will have an extremely hard time to even hear the difference in a double blind test between them in this typical application.
Obviously totally different story when being used for subs, lower range/full-range solutions, or seriously high power pro applications.
I have worked with pro drivers a lot, and even some more known brands go flat on their face when going through a typical pro torture test.
But non of that is important here.
So I even don't really see the need for measuring everything.
Sure it will be nice, but I have no doubt that one could make a very nice sounding system with all the woofers mentioned before.
Eighteen sound 10W500 also quite a nice woofer.
But to be very honest, if you just find some woofers with all the things I said before.
I personally think you will have an extremely hard time to even hear the difference in a double blind test between them in this typical application.
Obviously totally different story when being used for subs, lower range/full-range solutions, or seriously high power pro applications.
I have worked with pro drivers a lot, and even some more known brands go flat on their face when going through a typical pro torture test.
But non of that is important here.
So I even don't really see the need for measuring everything.
Sure it will be nice, but I have no doubt that one could make a very nice sounding system with all the woofers mentioned before.
Eighteen sound 10W500 also quite a nice woofer.
And then you still need to know what exactly to look for. If you are experienced, that’s probably fine. I’m not, I can look all I want, I can just tell you that it looks pretty 😀. Sure I can see a big magnet, venting etc, but I cannot put those things into perspective, let alone compare differing designs in a meaningful way.
The mind listens as much as the ears, so just picking one at random just because all of them will be fine.. will not have a positive psychoacoustic result 😱 . Some nitpicking is definitely needed to sooth those neurons. And besides, we’ll also need to fill some diskspace on the forum servers 🙄
That is very true and don't forget those eyes as well 😉
My personal approach, is to first delete all the junk as mentioned before.
Than figure out what kind of cabinet I want, see what set of parameters won't give me to much trouble (if there is a 4ohm version available that performs the same, easier to drive), and than pick the one which looks the best.
Because ugly looking drivers always sound horrible 😀 😀
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Been thinking about a similar project. 10"+ Compression + CD horn.
It's to be used for occasional parties, and would be combined with a single 18" sub.
Top to be powered with something like 300-500W.
Intend some heavy use when partying.
In normal days they could double as back channels in my 7.1 HT.
I don't want to spend a fortune, so was very much looking at the Turbosound TS-10W300/8A .... looks sturdy and has 2.5 inch VC. Draw back is limited Xmax though (3.4 mm)
Any thought on this driver?
Not to bash anyone, but b_force, what in your opinion are the better vs maybe not so great brands? (refereing to your statement: "some more known brands go flat on their face when going through a typical pro torture test")
KR Baldin
It's to be used for occasional parties, and would be combined with a single 18" sub.
Top to be powered with something like 300-500W.
Intend some heavy use when partying.
In normal days they could double as back channels in my 7.1 HT.
I don't want to spend a fortune, so was very much looking at the Turbosound TS-10W300/8A .... looks sturdy and has 2.5 inch VC. Draw back is limited Xmax though (3.4 mm)
Any thought on this driver?
Not to bash anyone, but b_force, what in your opinion are the better vs maybe not so great brands? (refereing to your statement: "some more known brands go flat on their face when going through a typical pro torture test")
KR Baldin
@Graham
In DK there are many opportunities to get something printed for free - Only paying for the filament. Try seaching for eveningschools, open technology spaces Design shools or other places where they might use 3d printers.
Cheers!
In DK there are many opportunities to get something printed for free - Only paying for the filament. Try seaching for eveningschools, open technology spaces Design shools or other places where they might use 3d printers.
Cheers!
CamillaDSP - Cross-platform IIR and FIR engine for crossovers, room correction etc.
Yes, really, you should take control 😉
//
That really depends on context and usage.
For professional production one just looks for other things.
Something people seem to forget, but in the end I rather have a brand that I can trust (or not changing their production or line-up every year) than a brand that (on paper) will perform "better".
Non working products or product you have to call-back are WAY worse in the end.
So almost all main brands are fine.
Have been working with B&C and Eighteen Sound for years.
Overall great experience, fair prices.
BMS, Oberton, RCF and such, also all great.
No direct experience, except for the odd test here and there.
Also because I just don't really see the benefit in the higher price. (few exceptions here and there)
Faital Pro and Sica seems totally fine to me as well.
Sica is a bit of a mixed back to be honest.
They have great stuff, but also things that feel out of place (price vs performance vs other brands)
Celestion, have been around for years.
Overall good quality, but can be very dated technology at times.
Especially when considering the price vs other major brands.
Beyma was a bit hit or miss, but once again (extremely important!!) we are talking about professional production!!
On personal projects, I have no issues with Beyma at all!
Their (new) little fullrange drivers are pretty neat.
Ciare, feels to me they have a bit of a identity problem sometimes.
Their 18 inches at that time (5-6 years back) were not doing great.
We had issues with bending/folding cones under heavy loads.
New kids on the block (well, not totally true, but ok).
LaVoce, I have a bit of experience, seems fine.
No idea how it will hold up in serious production and environments.
SB Audience, no idea. Their hifi still is mostly really good.
Tymphany started to also put a foot in pro-audio.
They are fine as a manufacturer, but have tendency to change policies, production and such.
P.Audio, very very poor.
All seems fine at first, but after a while it just really went down hill.
Rubbing spiders against cones, T/S all over the place etc etc. 😡
Just never again.
Maybe after all those years they changed stuff, but in our case trust was already out of the window.
All other obscure and lesser known brands;
You just really don't know.
Could be they are just fine, could be that it results in P.Audio like experiences
To repeat once more, this is seen from a professional production perspective.
For just a simple DIY it doesn't really matter that much, unless you're planning to really push every last bit out of things.
As you might notice, I didn't go into details.
That's on purpose. For pro-audio applications it is far more important that things will just keep working after many many hours of playing, so durability is very important as well as consistency in production quality.
Also, details like distortion and such just really depends per product, not per brand.
All brands have oddballs, misfits, extremely great products and cheap crap.
Probably I am forgetting quite a lot of (known) brands. 😀