Your correct of course, but what I was trying to get across is the awareness of what seems as a faster pace of dac chip implementations & development in the Dap market.
Also, when taking into account all the computer OS woes discussed in previous pages, using a Dap as source looks to be a way to avoid that.
Its just an observation, I could be wrong.
I have not seen a single development in the DAP market that is anything more than a compact, low space and low power dac implementation. the sort of DAPs that are sold for these days several thousand dollars, are nothing but neutered full size dacs. the shortness of the product upgrade cycle should tell you more about the customers upgraditis than any real progress.
I presume you are talking more of things like the chord 2qute? more of a portable dac than a DAP. if you are talking more of things like the A&K stuff? their top of the line at nearly $4000 is a dual AK4499. they claim the new model was upgraded high current power supply (a ridiculous notion for a portable unit) 'to realise the best of the AK4499 architecture' ... a fancy way to say what readers of this thread know. 'our old power supply could not meet the requirements of the dual AK4499' this chip is quite power hungry, as is any IV stage that can pass the current of a dual AK4499, which is quite a power hog and has a very large output current, unlike even a dual ES9038PRO IIRC. so basically they used a power supply that could power it and call that a breakthrough. they also call using an IV stage and opamps that can deal with these demands a breakthrough. They also, like Sony with their newest DAP, seem to charge a few hundred dollars for the 'improved sound quality' of building the chassis from copper. Sony must be laughing all the way to the bank.
the only development that appears to be in overdrive is the marketing department.
I presume you are talking more of things like the chord 2qute? more of a portable dac than a DAP. if you are talking more of things like the A&K stuff? their top of the line at nearly $4000 is a dual AK4499. they claim the new model was upgraded high current power supply (a ridiculous notion for a portable unit) 'to realise the best of the AK4499 architecture' ... a fancy way to say what readers of this thread know. 'our old power supply could not meet the requirements of the dual AK4499' this chip is quite power hungry, as is any IV stage that can pass the current of a dual AK4499, which is quite a power hog and has a very large output current, unlike even a dual ES9038PRO IIRC. so basically they used a power supply that could power it and call that a breakthrough. they also call using an IV stage and opamps that can deal with these demands a breakthrough. They also, like Sony with their newest DAP, seem to charge a few hundred dollars for the 'improved sound quality' of building the chassis from copper. Sony must be laughing all the way to the bank.
the only development that appears to be in overdrive is the marketing department.
Such a harsh stance towards the progress of the art of audio.
Muahahahahahahahaha.
You are of course quite right.
Too cynical? 😉
I lament the grammatical mistakes–especially–in the tense of my reply ... damn that no edit function. I'm glad I still made myself clear, it seems.
I lament the grammatical mistakes–especially–in the tense of my reply ... damn that no edit function. I'm glad I still made myself clear, it seems.
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Wouldn't be too surprising if someone like IVX were to come out with a low cost, great measuring DAP, would it?
Doesn't mean I would necessarily prefer the SQ of course...
Doesn't mean I would necessarily prefer the SQ of course...
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No, that wouldn't surprise me at all. He's pretty well placed to do just that, but it isnt a cheap undertaking, on the software end.
Ouch! Flame off please?
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Actually, its the development of the dac section I was trying to refer to.
Mini R2R implementations, and more importantly, FPGA chip control implementations on the existing desktop dac chips used in the top models.
This places an advantage than just standard chip
manufacturer layouts. And yet, as you noted, the space is the factor.
Also, on another totally different point,
The advantages derived of having a DAP implementation, totally avoids all computer, software, data transmission, and connection related issues noted in last few pages. Everything is (mostly) optimally placed to handle all the music processing in one complete unit.
That's a huge benefit, yes?
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So something like the Luxury and precision P6? again, there is nothing new here, just new to portable. there are similar units sold as raspberry pi hats for a couple hundred dollars vs its $4K. They are also mini computers and not necessarily optimally placed, just closely placed. they didnt go without anything and I would be very surprised if it reached the specs they claim, especially with the wireless radio functioning. (and the objective specs they claim are not groundbreaking for dacs, even discrete R2R ones.
they just epitomised everything I said last night. the page is full of 'breakthroughs' that are just regular design solutions to the problems they created for themselves. yes, it looks like a reasonable dac, but there will still have been compromises and there is nothing new or groundbreaking here. In fact it all (including the marketing) sounds remarkably familiar ...
Luxury & Precision P6 64GB PCM1704K R2R DAC Portable Music Player DAP — HiFiGo
just read it, claims of breakthroughs, not a single measurement to back up the claims. they say its equivalent to 8 x PCM1704 and maybe the architecture is similar to that, but there is no breakthrough here, except perhaps in squeezing it in and I think the IC manufacturers of the 1704 already followed that miniaturization road a fair way; 20 years ago. they squeezed it all into a chip!!! they wax lyrical about matching their 0603 size resistors (why you would use 0603 in a discrete dac i'm not sure) but i'm pretty sure the laser trimming is better than hand selecting.
here, an rpi dac hat, probably selling for a couple hundred.
Discrete R-2R DAC Hat for Raspberry Pi - V1.3 - Audiophile Diyer
with all that functionality to control, what else would they use but an FPGA? what is different to home audio here? i'm sorry i'm still not seeing this incredible pace in development?
they just epitomised everything I said last night. the page is full of 'breakthroughs' that are just regular design solutions to the problems they created for themselves. yes, it looks like a reasonable dac, but there will still have been compromises and there is nothing new or groundbreaking here. In fact it all (including the marketing) sounds remarkably familiar ...
Luxury & Precision P6 64GB PCM1704K R2R DAC Portable Music Player DAP — HiFiGo
just read it, claims of breakthroughs, not a single measurement to back up the claims. they say its equivalent to 8 x PCM1704 and maybe the architecture is similar to that, but there is no breakthrough here, except perhaps in squeezing it in and I think the IC manufacturers of the 1704 already followed that miniaturization road a fair way; 20 years ago. they squeezed it all into a chip!!! they wax lyrical about matching their 0603 size resistors (why you would use 0603 in a discrete dac i'm not sure) but i'm pretty sure the laser trimming is better than hand selecting.
here, an rpi dac hat, probably selling for a couple hundred.
Discrete R-2R DAC Hat for Raspberry Pi - V1.3 - Audiophile Diyer
with all that functionality to control, what else would they use but an FPGA? what is different to home audio here? i'm sorry i'm still not seeing this incredible pace in development?
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lol, I knew someone would say that. yes, of course, but probably not for any of the realtime filtering stuff. most likely they used both, possibly even on the same SoC, but my point is, the technologies used, are natural and obvious uses of the technology; especially given they are exactly what has been used in home audio.
Not to toss gasoline on the fire but 16 bits accuracy with SMT resistors is wishful thinking. The 24 bit stuff is utterly meaningless. I have 2 24 bit equivalent DAC's that cost originally about $20K each and have oil bath precision wirewound resistors and probably (depending on how fast I flip switches) 5 samples per minute max. Fluke 720A Replacement - KVD-700 Precision Kelvin-Varley Voltage Divider The sample and hold necessary for 16 bit accuracy is not trivial. The distortion measured supports my lack of enthusiasm. Read page 10 of this manual on the only serious 24 bit Ladder DAC to understand how challenging 24 bit accuracy using resistors can be: http://www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-da924-manual.pdf .
Yes. Colour me unconvinced in general, when it comes to discrete R2R dacs. I've never really been tempted to build one of the many published all these years. It seems like creating problems and expense for yourself, for no good reason. Nothing wrong with them persay, but they appear to be left wanting vs the rather more technically advanced technique of laser trimming they claim to supplant. At least by the metrics I have for things I build. don't take that as being against discrete design; sometimes it's the only way, but it is not an automatic upgrade; thats for sure.
The natural and obvious thing to do is let the MCU run the GUI and control aspects and let the FPGA do the processing and routing.
AK4499 will probably never be available again. Since the AKM plant fire, AKM has declared AK4499 to be of EOL (End of Life) status.
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