In some respects you were closer than many. My first DIY speaker, didn't have baffle step, any knowledge of phase, diffraction and crossover based on 8 ohm or 4 ohm impedance calculations.
If you had already purchased the drivers they would give a decent sound I guesstimate, and people here would help you define it as needed until you were happy with the sound.Alternatively you may not like what you heard and without a good model or measurement it would be difficult to spot. The drivers are more than than adequate and would have tuned well in your chosen cabinet volumes
If you had already purchased the drivers they would give a decent sound I guesstimate, and people here would help you define it as needed until you were happy with the sound.Alternatively you may not like what you heard and without a good model or measurement it would be difficult to spot. The drivers are more than than adequate and would have tuned well in your chosen cabinet volumes
Thanks raymondj. I understand that speaker measurement is an art in itself. I am considering to buy a Berhinger Uphoria UM2 and a USB mic. But it will take some time and patience to learn and take measurement to acceptable accuracy. I also don't know now how to crosscheck if measurements that are being taken are accurate or not.
Standing at the crossroad I feel a bit confused now. Two roads are in front of me. Whether I should hold myself back till I learn to take good measurements or I should go ahead depending on modeling by modeling softwares and measurements taken by others which are available online. I do have Markaudio Alpair10 Pensil speakers and they sound quite good, so definitely I am expecting a jump in sound quality from my next build.
Standing at the crossroad I feel a bit confused now. Two roads are in front of me. Whether I should hold myself back till I learn to take good measurements or I should go ahead depending on modeling by modeling softwares and measurements taken by others which are available online. I do have Markaudio Alpair10 Pensil speakers and they sound quite good, so definitely I am expecting a jump in sound quality from my next build.
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I second what markbakk wrote. The USB microphones can't measure phase properly, and regular microphone with phantom power supply are not susceptible to USB microphones latency problems. USB mics are OK for overall freq resp, but you can't use them predictably to measure impulse response like MLS in ARTA (Clio, Just MLS, HolmImpulse) to find difference between acoustic centers of the drivers. However, one might use min phase transform in crossover simulations, and after prototype is built and measured, adjust (delay) until simulation is similar to measured data. Still, I would go with regular USB sound card (capable of 96kHz sampling if possible) and phantom powered microphone.
Going back to the infinite baffle freq resp with baffle step calculation vs measured driver in the box - they're close, not identical but close. So just to get an idea how much BS and overall freq resp it is quite useful. Also to determine if your measurements are decent/make sense. MLS done right should be more precise than simulation from manufacturers data above, say, 500Hz if the environment allows for semi anechoic measurements (keep the soundwaves away from reflections). I compare it then to gated sine measurement if the two 'match' each other. You must do measurements for the tweeter as the baffle size, placement of the drivers and related diffraction will influence the tweeter freq resp a lot and diffraction simulation don't reflect the reality in this case. Then do set of off axis measurements if possible (Vituix makes very good use of them).
With the Vifa NE180/SB26ADC(CDC) if you take your time and make x-o correctly they should be way more satisfying than Markaudio. Sometimes 0.5dB here and there, phase integration can make quite a difference in final voicing.
With the Vifa NE180/SB26ADC(CDC) if you take your time and make x-o correctly they should be way more satisfying than Markaudio. Sometimes 0.5dB here and there, phase integration can make quite a difference in final voicing.
Take some time to peruse the ARTA thread here in the software section. There was a discussion of USB sound cards. I faintly remember there was some problem with the cheaper Behringer options, while some model higher up (and not that much pricier) was fine.
Lots of other good info in that thread too. The Arta manuals are pretty good, the key for me was to practice AND read up simultaneously - the stuff is pretty abstract without applying it.
Lots of other good info in that thread too. The Arta manuals are pretty good, the key for me was to practice AND read up simultaneously - the stuff is pretty abstract without applying it.
Here you will find requirements and tips for the measurement setup. Thing with cheap interfaces is that, apart from non synchronous AD/DA, the microphone input sometimes is directed to both left and right input channel. I once had to fix that on a Yamaha USB interface (along with discarding of the direct monitor on the output). You need two separate input channels. Might be the cheap Behringers have flaws there and if you have the cash, move up to a better card, the Focusrite series are quite popular.
ARTA has MLS option, impedance, distortions, and it's very accurate if set up correctly. Normally I use very old Clio. REW does similar things, but for strict x-o design I would give ARTA priority.
Books: the one I bought decades ago was by Joseph D'Appolito, but instruments like Klippel raised the bar. Then Praxis came and a few other measurement systems. REW constantly gets new updates.
Technical articles and article reprints
Go through ARTA, REW, Vituix manuals, as other than software specific issues, they are more similar than different. If you have Focus Scarlett, then you just need good microphone (calibration would be nice, and store it somewhere where it isn't affected by climatic changes). A dedicated PC, can be something older, would be nice, so your calibration settings are untouched and unaffected by updates, bla, bla, bla. Also check ASIO, as it might improve latency.
Books: the one I bought decades ago was by Joseph D'Appolito, but instruments like Klippel raised the bar. Then Praxis came and a few other measurement systems. REW constantly gets new updates.
Technical articles and article reprints
Go through ARTA, REW, Vituix manuals, as other than software specific issues, they are more similar than different. If you have Focus Scarlett, then you just need good microphone (calibration would be nice, and store it somewhere where it isn't affected by climatic changes). A dedicated PC, can be something older, would be nice, so your calibration settings are untouched and unaffected by updates, bla, bla, bla. Also check ASIO, as it might improve latency.
I have two options to buy
1.Behringer U-Phoria UMC204HD
2.Focusrite Scarlett Solo (3rd Gen) USB Audio Interface with Pro Tools.
which one would be better to have?
Do microphones come in calibrated form? If not then how to calibrate?
Thanks Pawel for the link to the Technical articles.
1.Behringer U-Phoria UMC204HD
2.Focusrite Scarlett Solo (3rd Gen) USB Audio Interface with Pro Tools.
which one would be better to have?
Do microphones come in calibrated form? If not then how to calibrate?
Thanks Pawel for the link to the Technical articles.
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A good solid measurement mic is the Audix TM1 and it comes with a calibration file. Another cheaper option is the Beyerdynamic MM1, for which you can request a calibration file if you give them the serial number. One of the cheapest calibrated mics is the mini-dsp umik1.
Most of the lower priced usb audio interfaces aren't that bad, but I wouldn't go cheaper than the focusrite. Its a good cheap interface with a decent mic preamp stage. The mic preamp needs to be clean and have good low end linearity. Most cheaper interfaces aren't flat enough in the low end and the other issue is noise if the interface is usb bus powered.
I started using a Motu M4 and Audix TM1 with REW. I came from a Dayton Omnimic and Clio Pocket. The Dayton was easy to use but not very consistent. The Clio was hard to use and had other bugs.
Most of the lower priced usb audio interfaces aren't that bad, but I wouldn't go cheaper than the focusrite. Its a good cheap interface with a decent mic preamp stage. The mic preamp needs to be clean and have good low end linearity. Most cheaper interfaces aren't flat enough in the low end and the other issue is noise if the interface is usb bus powered.
I started using a Motu M4 and Audix TM1 with REW. I came from a Dayton Omnimic and Clio Pocket. The Dayton was easy to use but not very consistent. The Clio was hard to use and had other bugs.
Don't get a USB mic, check out the Vituixcad for reasons why - you need 2-channel measurement.
You need two channels in the interface to correct for phase and for the issues Profiguy mentions. Check out the Arta thread for that. The Solo might not be sufficient.
Most mics are pretty flat in the band where the crossover is likely to be, i.e. between 500-8000 Hz.
You need two channels in the interface to correct for phase and for the issues Profiguy mentions. Check out the Arta thread for that. The Solo might not be sufficient.
Most mics are pretty flat in the band where the crossover is likely to be, i.e. between 500-8000 Hz.
To add my bit.
Looking here on Amazon UK the focusrite which is a popular recording device has people suggesting there are issues with the drivers and windows 10, with very little support. Some people can install things without issues, whilst others can battle for two days to get there and some just give. As an observation windows 10 can be a pain when it wants to be.
Further in the hypex fusion and DLCP threads there was an discussion about latency and the focusrite due to the USB not being tied to a master clock due to chip types or some such. It does look great so who wouldn't want to own one, apparently the V3 version has the same issue.
I haven't searched for Behringer issues, obviously use the latest driver form the manufacturers website etc and it has two channels which may be useful for certain audio test configuration's.
The EMM-6 looks like good value for an XLR phantom powered mic that can be connected to you chosen USB pre amp.
Definitely wait a little longer for more feedback and recommendations and check the REW and Arta threads mentioned.
Looking here on Amazon UK the focusrite which is a popular recording device has people suggesting there are issues with the drivers and windows 10, with very little support. Some people can install things without issues, whilst others can battle for two days to get there and some just give. As an observation windows 10 can be a pain when it wants to be.
Further in the hypex fusion and DLCP threads there was an discussion about latency and the focusrite due to the USB not being tied to a master clock due to chip types or some such. It does look great so who wouldn't want to own one, apparently the V3 version has the same issue.
I haven't searched for Behringer issues, obviously use the latest driver form the manufacturers website etc and it has two channels which may be useful for certain audio test configuration's.
The EMM-6 looks like good value for an XLR phantom powered mic that can be connected to you chosen USB pre amp.
Definitely wait a little longer for more feedback and recommendations and check the REW and Arta threads mentioned.
The EMM6 is an acceptable mic for occasional use. There are inconsistencies above 8 to 10k on these cheaper mics even with cal files. The capsule is simply too big and not that good, but then again you get what you pay for.
I agree that a 2 ch interface is necessary for absolute phase measurement. Most USB mics won't facilitate absolute phase without referencing the test signal timing events.
I've used the scarlet 2i2 with windows 10 and the standard asio drivers. Most of the cheap USB interfaces are optimized for Mac os and can be tricky to use with windows 7,8,9,10. The latency isn't an issue if it stays fixed via the asio driver settings. As long as its accounted for, there won't be problems.
I agree that a 2 ch interface is necessary for absolute phase measurement. Most USB mics won't facilitate absolute phase without referencing the test signal timing events.
I've used the scarlet 2i2 with windows 10 and the standard asio drivers. Most of the cheap USB interfaces are optimized for Mac os and can be tricky to use with windows 7,8,9,10. The latency isn't an issue if it stays fixed via the asio driver settings. As long as its accounted for, there won't be problems.
Aim for a time window (gate) of about 6-8ms. That means reflected sound has to make an extra pathway of 2 to 3 meter. With a measuring distance of 1m you need sidewalls, floor and ceiling to be at least 1,5m away from the microphone.
@profiguy, what do you mean by big? The capsules of the cheap electrets are 1/8” and in the Dayton and it’s varieties a 1/4” casing is used. That is the same as all 1/4” high end microphones from B&K, Gras and so on. Even a 1/2” microphone will easily do 20k, but the difference between on-axis and off-axis response will be bigger.
[edit]May I promote the Asio4all-drivers? They saved me discarding of a not supported anymore but otherwise perfect EMU0404.
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