The 43XX series are studio monitors but less like todays monitors in being almost sterile and focusing on revealing problems in recordings. They as mentioned above reveal microdynamics.
Soundstage tends to be different on horns, more up front and towards you, whereas the 43xx are famous for extending the soundstage outwards past the speakers. They make you check for sounds coming from beyond the speakers. Also TG1 does this, seems to be something special good big monsters can do. The depth of the soundstage is good but can sometimes not compete with the best of the extremely narrow tweeter baffles. Ifthey are horn there is directivity and much less disfraction and different room resonances, compared to dome tweeters so that is often odd for people. Also people tend to use the echos and reflections to get a mental soundstage but this is another story.
High end specialized in creating good imaging utilizing narrow baffles. See Vandersteen philosophy . The big monsters image differently, much wider and strangely they are like Dilbert's dinosaurs although they are huge you need to know and focus on them to notice them. Imaging / sweetspot tends to be larger. Soundstage sometimes less than tiny stand mounts, but more of that live feeling as if you are 1-3 row in a intimate concert or some if set up correctly with horns gives you that feeling you have someone singing just for you in front of your face. I like that sound just manifesting, and 18" bass just appears and disappears in your guts. Size matters.
Not everyone likes that some think it's too dynamic or in your face/up front. I like that it moves you but you need size to replicate live music and real large instruments and horns and big membranes help to startle you into emotions.
But short JBL good soundstage, Kendricks improved, also Troels is better than classic JBLs but plenty of high end that image worse. Probably not as good as Maggies or Quads for example, but troels uses his Quads as reference for cohesion and imaging and this shows.
Soundstage tends to be different on horns, more up front and towards you, whereas the 43xx are famous for extending the soundstage outwards past the speakers. They make you check for sounds coming from beyond the speakers. Also TG1 does this, seems to be something special good big monsters can do. The depth of the soundstage is good but can sometimes not compete with the best of the extremely narrow tweeter baffles. Ifthey are horn there is directivity and much less disfraction and different room resonances, compared to dome tweeters so that is often odd for people. Also people tend to use the echos and reflections to get a mental soundstage but this is another story.
High end specialized in creating good imaging utilizing narrow baffles. See Vandersteen philosophy . The big monsters image differently, much wider and strangely they are like Dilbert's dinosaurs although they are huge you need to know and focus on them to notice them. Imaging / sweetspot tends to be larger. Soundstage sometimes less than tiny stand mounts, but more of that live feeling as if you are 1-3 row in a intimate concert or some if set up correctly with horns gives you that feeling you have someone singing just for you in front of your face. I like that sound just manifesting, and 18" bass just appears and disappears in your guts. Size matters.
Not everyone likes that some think it's too dynamic or in your face/up front. I like that it moves you but you need size to replicate live music and real large instruments and horns and big membranes help to startle you into emotions.
But short JBL good soundstage, Kendricks improved, also Troels is better than classic JBLs but plenty of high end that image worse. Probably not as good as Maggies or Quads for example, but troels uses his Quads as reference for cohesion and imaging and this shows.
Thanks. I would like to read more reviews like yours. It is balanced and no blah from my point of view.
It's a mystery TG chose Quads over ML... because of the low mid and bass, but it's another story.
For me that venue first raw feeling may be artificialy made by choice in the filter : it's a little more high bass -around 100 hz- very subttle, but alway vs the more readness in the mids and trebles. But there is no doubt most of the music life is 40 hz to 800 hz, at least with classic reccords in venues, somewhere it glues with what you say about Sd and your taste related to the first raws of venues...
And this is an important question related to the aesthetic of sound, so an artificial choice, chosen by design ! Hifi is more about that mystic straight line where you should hear each details in all the pass band but what is not the essence of music. I would like to read more about the choices of the iso curves in movies and audiophiles people related to the music. It's always trade off and for sure maybe what we see in production today made a choice that helps to sell loudspeaker but not a better choice ! Go figure ! Good luck to see basic guess like mine here in such printed magasines ! Quite happy to read different feeling here
It's a mystery TG chose Quads over ML... because of the low mid and bass, but it's another story.
For me that venue first raw feeling may be artificialy made by choice in the filter : it's a little more high bass -around 100 hz- very subttle, but alway vs the more readness in the mids and trebles. But there is no doubt most of the music life is 40 hz to 800 hz, at least with classic reccords in venues, somewhere it glues with what you say about Sd and your taste related to the first raws of venues...
And this is an important question related to the aesthetic of sound, so an artificial choice, chosen by design ! Hifi is more about that mystic straight line where you should hear each details in all the pass band but what is not the essence of music. I would like to read more about the choices of the iso curves in movies and audiophiles people related to the music. It's always trade off and for sure maybe what we see in production today made a choice that helps to sell loudspeaker but not a better choice ! Go figure ! Good luck to see basic guess like mine here in such printed magasines ! Quite happy to read different feeling here
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I heard Everest several years ago, it was the DD66000 model, I do not know what the improvements have been that justified or not adding another number to the end of the model.
It was in the room of the current MC Intosh representative here in Argentina.
The room was medium in size, and filled with speakers of all kinds, the cones of which probably acted as bass traps. This is quite a typical situation in demo rooms, I had already experienced it when I was an audio salesperson in other companies.
(I clarify that I never lied to anyone to make a sale, on the contrary, I lost many for being too objective, but my enthusiasm for the audio could more than the monetary interest, please do not bite my jugular, in the castle of Dracula They are currently vaccinating against Covid, and nobody came across it, so there are many myths, I never sold snake oil)
Having clarified this, Silvio Pomar, the big man, asked me what he wanted to listen to. I remember I saw a CD by Rodolfo Mederos, so I asked him for that performer. I'm sorry if most of the people here don't know our music, tango, but I'm not going to lie here to relate the facts.
Mederos is something like Astor Piazzolla, although not so famous worldwide.
Silvio put on the CD and the sound of the bandoneon came from all over the environment, what we call "disappearing the speakers" ... I immediately looked at the 1 Kw MC Intosh that was feeding it, and the blue needle display indicated 1 watt peaks like Maximum, obviously, they are VERY efficient. -
But the sound radiated by those speakers did not impress me as a live bandoneon, it was too much sound space, there was something left over, the typical harmonics that radiate around the instrument were too "in the air".
So I asked him to put a female voice, and the same, exquisite definition, delicate timbre, but that singer was not in front of me, the voice surrounded me and floated too much ....
My current system with the Troels DTQWTII is somewhere in the middle, my room is bigger, but I don't think it's because of that. The speakers disappear but not completely, I perceive a feeling of frontality in the sound. I like that, that's how it sounds in reality.
It's like when we listen to a live recording, if we attend the show, the applause in real life surrounds us, we are in the audience, but the music is perceived from in front of us, from the stage. But in the recordings, the applause seems to come from the stage, that is, it is recorded from the point of listening of the musicians. That is unreal. With any cabinet you will be perceived in the same way.
The Everest has a huge deflector, very wide, it looks like an OB, my cabinets don't, they are narrow and deep. Although Everest is a direct radiator and my speakers are a double horn, they clearly don't sound remotely similar, price factor aside ...
But I would go for the TL1 from Troels without hesitation if I were to change my cabinets again.
In short, there is a point in audio where small advances cost a lot of money, and if you have it and want to spend it, fine, but do not expect a direct proportionality between the money invested vs. the quality of sound. I don't see it that way from my experience.
Rodolfo Mederos Trio - Sur (Anibal Troilo) - YouTube
It was in the room of the current MC Intosh representative here in Argentina.
The room was medium in size, and filled with speakers of all kinds, the cones of which probably acted as bass traps. This is quite a typical situation in demo rooms, I had already experienced it when I was an audio salesperson in other companies.
(I clarify that I never lied to anyone to make a sale, on the contrary, I lost many for being too objective, but my enthusiasm for the audio could more than the monetary interest, please do not bite my jugular, in the castle of Dracula They are currently vaccinating against Covid, and nobody came across it, so there are many myths, I never sold snake oil)
Having clarified this, Silvio Pomar, the big man, asked me what he wanted to listen to. I remember I saw a CD by Rodolfo Mederos, so I asked him for that performer. I'm sorry if most of the people here don't know our music, tango, but I'm not going to lie here to relate the facts.
Mederos is something like Astor Piazzolla, although not so famous worldwide.
Silvio put on the CD and the sound of the bandoneon came from all over the environment, what we call "disappearing the speakers" ... I immediately looked at the 1 Kw MC Intosh that was feeding it, and the blue needle display indicated 1 watt peaks like Maximum, obviously, they are VERY efficient. -
But the sound radiated by those speakers did not impress me as a live bandoneon, it was too much sound space, there was something left over, the typical harmonics that radiate around the instrument were too "in the air".
So I asked him to put a female voice, and the same, exquisite definition, delicate timbre, but that singer was not in front of me, the voice surrounded me and floated too much ....
My current system with the Troels DTQWTII is somewhere in the middle, my room is bigger, but I don't think it's because of that. The speakers disappear but not completely, I perceive a feeling of frontality in the sound. I like that, that's how it sounds in reality.
It's like when we listen to a live recording, if we attend the show, the applause in real life surrounds us, we are in the audience, but the music is perceived from in front of us, from the stage. But in the recordings, the applause seems to come from the stage, that is, it is recorded from the point of listening of the musicians. That is unreal. With any cabinet you will be perceived in the same way.
The Everest has a huge deflector, very wide, it looks like an OB, my cabinets don't, they are narrow and deep. Although Everest is a direct radiator and my speakers are a double horn, they clearly don't sound remotely similar, price factor aside ...
But I would go for the TL1 from Troels without hesitation if I were to change my cabinets again.
In short, there is a point in audio where small advances cost a lot of money, and if you have it and want to spend it, fine, but do not expect a direct proportionality between the money invested vs. the quality of sound. I don't see it that way from my experience.
Rodolfo Mederos Trio - Sur (Anibal Troilo) - YouTube
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“Champagne Tastes on a Beer Budget”
A coaxial compression driver on a large horn which can coherently cover 18kHz down to 500Hz has become popular.
Has anyone used the $170 China knock-off of the 2" BMS 4592ND coaxial compression driver? China has sold replacement BMS annular diaphragms for several years.
A coaxial compression driver on a large horn which can coherently cover 18kHz down to 500Hz has become popular.
Has anyone used the $170 China knock-off of the 2" BMS 4592ND coaxial compression driver? China has sold replacement BMS annular diaphragms for several years.
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@diyiggy that I am not all blah blah is rarely something I hear. Tend to ramble on
The Quads are legendary for several reasons and I agree that using them as a reference to compare your DIY work to is a very good idea. Stepped response almost optimal, integration of highs and mids is truely reference. The naturalness and coherence of instruments and vocals is almost unparalleled. Ability to portray the stage is exceptional. Transparancy, lack of time smear, low distortion and diffraction will make things sound as they will, but maybe not that nice
So great choice to see how your diy speakers compare 1 to 1. Anything can measure well but it does not mean it has coherence.
To personally listen to I would also likely pick a Maggie 1.7 for the better low mids and bass if I wanted some panels at home, but as a refrence for specific characteristics theQuads are hard to beat.
Oh and the low sensitivity and ******, no actually not bad, but not impactful but clean unexciting bass of the quads and the lack of ability to play loud you use TL1 to compare your diy speakers to reagrding dynamics, impact, immediacy, PRAT, liveness, bass and low mids. Troels is dedicated and it takes more than measurements, you should have referece gear.
Regarding the voicing for more live sound. Sure you can do that, but the hardest thing is the dynamics, that ability to change from smallest quiver in breath going right into a gut shaking bass slam that you get at a live venue is so difficult.
Funny thing is I think you are right and its not just that people prefer that some hifi speakers e.g. B&W or Wilson especially have this peak around 70hz, but it must also remind them of live.
The first rows effect has a lot to do with soundstage and horn directivity/imaging, since the speakers had no real bumps here. But psychoacustically you would invoke that effect with impactful big membrane bass. It's what you literally feel, it moves you and your guts. If you look at the quantity of Sd vs room, especially up front, not even a 4350 will really get you live especially good PA reinforced concert feelings but hey you got to have a reason to leave the house after Covid blows over. Hifi standmounts do not really even enter. Was surprised at just how incredibly the SPL changes in a live classical concert a few years back if you are up front. Crazy dynamic.
The Quads are legendary for several reasons and I agree that using them as a reference to compare your DIY work to is a very good idea. Stepped response almost optimal, integration of highs and mids is truely reference. The naturalness and coherence of instruments and vocals is almost unparalleled. Ability to portray the stage is exceptional. Transparancy, lack of time smear, low distortion and diffraction will make things sound as they will, but maybe not that nice
So great choice to see how your diy speakers compare 1 to 1. Anything can measure well but it does not mean it has coherence.
To personally listen to I would also likely pick a Maggie 1.7 for the better low mids and bass if I wanted some panels at home, but as a refrence for specific characteristics theQuads are hard to beat.
Oh and the low sensitivity and ******, no actually not bad, but not impactful but clean unexciting bass of the quads and the lack of ability to play loud you use TL1 to compare your diy speakers to reagrding dynamics, impact, immediacy, PRAT, liveness, bass and low mids. Troels is dedicated and it takes more than measurements, you should have referece gear.
Regarding the voicing for more live sound. Sure you can do that, but the hardest thing is the dynamics, that ability to change from smallest quiver in breath going right into a gut shaking bass slam that you get at a live venue is so difficult.
Funny thing is I think you are right and its not just that people prefer that some hifi speakers e.g. B&W or Wilson especially have this peak around 70hz, but it must also remind them of live.
The first rows effect has a lot to do with soundstage and horn directivity/imaging, since the speakers had no real bumps here. But psychoacustically you would invoke that effect with impactful big membrane bass. It's what you literally feel, it moves you and your guts.
If you look at the quantity of Sd vs room, especially up front, not even a 4350 will really get you live especially good PA reinforced concert feelings but hey you got to have a reason to leave the house after Covid blows over. Hifi standmounts do not really even enter. Was surprised at just how incredibly the SPL changes in a live classical concert a few years back if you are up front. Crazy dynamic.
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@TubeGlow (TG ?)
I agree on the philosophy about a reference, I quite like to tune dacS? I always proceed by pair to have reference, always with the same long list of tracks with different reccording quuality ! You don't know how good is a Camembert untill you taste a better one ! Can be true for all : wine, beer, reccordings, classic direction on orchestral venues, and of course Loudspeakers -untill you think of the receiver : room or listener -
Yes it's all subejective and true we are fanatics somewhere ... and well, to had the chance to listened to a Quasd ESL63 once (not the 57 yet halas or nore the further modern itteration 2912, etc... all I can say : I want one... just the concistency with time makes me doubt : Less than 10 years of services before the tense of the mylar causes problems perhaps ! And as we are complicate human being being, I also wants a VoT (Hiraga setuped)
I agree on the philosophy about a reference, I quite like to tune dacS? I always proceed by pair to have reference, always with the same long list of tracks with different reccording quuality ! You don't know how good is a Camembert untill you taste a better one ! Can be true for all : wine, beer, reccordings, classic direction on orchestral venues, and of course Loudspeakers -untill you think of the receiver : room or listener -
Yes it's all subejective and true we are fanatics somewhere
... and well, to had the chance to listened to a Quasd ESL63 once (not the 57 yet halas or nore the further modern itteration 2912, etc... all I can say : I want one... just the concistency with time makes me doubt : Less than 10 years of services before the tense of the mylar causes problems perhaps ! And as we are complicate human being being, I also wants a VoT (Hiraga setuped)
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Have anyone compare Troels Gravesen The Loudspeaker 1-3 to a high end speaker from B&W, Sounus faber, JBL?
Hi! At some point, the question is silly
I cannot answer as you want. But if you have a decent audio rig and a medium/big room those kind of speakers will blow your mind, especially if you value live concerts.
If you are an audiophile like guy, those are not for you
I'we listened JBL 4333A in a 4X5X2.7 meters room (small I would state) and they sound awesome (belongs to a retired recording engineer). Also I have listened, in a quite big room, the Genelec 1038B (active loudspeakers) driven by a very good valve balanced preamplifier, and the sound was 'reference' (not exactly in the audiophile stile, I would say). Genelec sounds almost perfect in every way, lacking just a hair of ultimate 'audiophile' excitement, while the JBL has more bloom/texture in bass and midbass. Both examples are big speakers, using 15" low frequency drivers, delivering outstanding dynamics. Both are intended to be studio tools - designed for mastering . I am using my own design two way 15" and a 1"+ SEOS15 waveguide (both are Beyma drivers) in a 125L cabinet, and I am more than content with it in a small room.
The Loudspeaker project is for true music lovers
I can agree about what you say in the - my words- high bass to mid- and hifi loudspeakers, I mean the common audiophile VS live lovers, etc. Just sometimes, stop to share few coins in the Metro (tube) when a violoncellist or classic bass are playing and go back after the journey to listen to my "hifi"...and I cry because of the better souvenir I heard in the metro !
But not a judgment, all is about personal listening tastes. One can live fine with reccordings and classic good Hi-Fi (clean everywhere, and the reccordings nowadays tends to supress dynamics over something else perhaps made for ear buds)
But not a judgment, all is about personal listening tastes. One can live fine with reccordings and classic good Hi-Fi (clean everywhere, and the reccordings nowadays tends to supress dynamics over something else perhaps made for ear buds)
we should go to the guitar shop, but with that car :
TomT, what is your point please . All is quite questionable ! Big Sd suggest two things : more emissive area and maybe less laggin between different notes at iso frequencies due to the big Sd equals to more rapid go and stop from this Sd.
Do you disagree ?
TomT, what is your point please . All is quite questionable ! Big Sd suggest two things : more emissive area and maybe less laggin between different notes at iso frequencies due to the big Sd equals to more rapid go and stop from this Sd.
Do you disagree ?
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Which speaker? Controlled directivity down as low as possible and set up correctly will image better than wide directivity speakers as they won't illuminate side and front walls. Pi Speakers have a good paper on setting up controlled directivity speakers that also explains why.
Why ?
I think you would have to attach a link to support that, just because you say it is not enough.
.............
, especially if you value live concerts.
If you are an audiophile like guy, those are not for you
What is the difference between an audiophile and a live music lover? I always thought they were the same type of animal, could you be more explicit?
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Academia:
https://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
Brett made a shortcut they illuminate the opposite side wall ( so ER come back more delayed and attenuated). If you cannot have acoustic treatment ( and your room have the required dimensions) it is a nice answer. This is Pi7 corner loaded loudspeakers.
This solution is not completly different than Earl Geddes proposition ( but there is difference though).
https://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
Brett made a shortcut they illuminate the opposite side wall ( so ER come back more delayed and attenuated). If you cannot have acoustic treatment ( and your room have the required dimensions) it is a nice answer. This is Pi7 corner loaded loudspeakers.
This solution is not completly different than Earl Geddes proposition ( but there is difference though).
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Someone mentioned Maggiès here ....
I hope that lovers of electrostatic speakers don't bother, but it seems that Magnepan has finally solved the typical lack of solid, compact bass, in these types of drivers, which, as tubeglow49 said, are visceral, you feel them in the body.
I know users who added to their electrostatic speakers a box in the base with 2 8-inch speakers for each cabinet, a task done by "specialists", who took several months to do the job and charged a fortune. Sure, if you do it in two days, how do you justify the money you charge?
Martin Logan decided to do it a long time ago, straight from the factory to the consumer.
Magnestand - Where Maggies Live And Breathe
I hope that lovers of electrostatic speakers don't bother, but it seems that Magnepan has finally solved the typical lack of solid, compact bass, in these types of drivers, which, as tubeglow49 said, are visceral, you feel them in the body.
I know users who added to their electrostatic speakers a box in the base with 2 8-inch speakers for each cabinet, a task done by "specialists", who took several months to do the job and charged a fortune. Sure, if you do it in two days, how do you justify the money you charge?
Martin Logan decided to do it a long time ago, straight from the factory to the consumer.
Magnestand - Where Maggies Live And Breathe
