Can anyone recommend a good all-round measurements mic cheap or perhaps higher cost please? Omnimic V2 or something as good for less perhaps.
I'm going to have to buy a measurement mic for my new found hobby of DIY speaker building. There's no getting around it I cant hear things that's not there other than a sound I find pleasing or not.
Anyway my next step is going active with the crossovers and without a measurement mic I have no idea what changes made is doing to the actual sound.
I've been thinking of the Dayton Audio Omnimic V2 although its quite a bit more than I really wanted to pay. I had a UMIK1 in the past and I thought it was a little bit of a faff to use and the Omnimic seems to have its own dedicated software as well and can be used real-time to make changes on the fly, this seems a lot better way to do things. Cost quite a bit more though 🙁
Can anyone recommend anything or are there any other good cheaper mics about that do the exact same thing?
Any help would be greatly appreciated thanks.
I'm going to have to buy a measurement mic for my new found hobby of DIY speaker building. There's no getting around it I cant hear things that's not there other than a sound I find pleasing or not.
Anyway my next step is going active with the crossovers and without a measurement mic I have no idea what changes made is doing to the actual sound.
I've been thinking of the Dayton Audio Omnimic V2 although its quite a bit more than I really wanted to pay. I had a UMIK1 in the past and I thought it was a little bit of a faff to use and the Omnimic seems to have its own dedicated software as well and can be used real-time to make changes on the fly, this seems a lot better way to do things. Cost quite a bit more though 🙁
Can anyone recommend anything or are there any other good cheaper mics about that do the exact same thing?
Any help would be greatly appreciated thanks.
If you have a mic preamp (designed for use with electret mics), then I don't think you can get better value than the dayton IMM6 Note it has a TRRS connector, designed for smart phone use and you will need to make an adapter if you want to plug it into a normal mic preamp.
Tony.
Tony.
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There are a number of inexpensive measurement microphones. Many are from the same chinese supplier. They are all pretty good. However then you have soundcard and software to resolve. Most of the mikes need a balanced phantom power mike preamp on the soundcard. That seems usually to be at least a Focusrite. The go to software for amateurs is either ARTA or Room Eq Wizard.
However The Omnimic will get you on the air quicker with less stuff and uncertainty on what you are measuring. Its really easy to get sidetracked into the process and lose site of the goal- understanding the relationships between measurements and what you hear. And there is not a lot of consensus in what the right measurements would be. At least there is agreement on what should not happen: distortion, big frequency response fluctuations etc.
However The Omnimic will get you on the air quicker with less stuff and uncertainty on what you are measuring. Its really easy to get sidetracked into the process and lose site of the goal- understanding the relationships between measurements and what you hear. And there is not a lot of consensus in what the right measurements would be. At least there is agreement on what should not happen: distortion, big frequency response fluctuations etc.
Ah yes I have seen this little mic it looks like such a bargain. I would have to consider a pre amp so that would have to be factored in and when you do that your near USB mics then so then perhaps it doesn't look so good. I wonder if the larger USB mics are any better though and I'm sure a pre amp bargain could be had also for the 6.
The OmniMic is such an appealing package. It's ready to go out of the box and the included software looks just better than anything free like REW. I used REW before and I thought it was a little limited even though I didn't find my way to be completely competent in it or discover everything it could do. I liked the way REW could overlay the different coloured trends though for comparison. But what I find so appealing with OmniMic is the real time adjustment. And if you have active crossover the ability to tweek as you go and adjust the responses to almost perfection rather than doing a sweep making changes and then repeating, it just works continuously with omni and its software. Trouble is it's significantly more outlay and its not as if I'm building speakers all the time.
And yes I suppose there is debate when it comes the measuring properly as well and to where your speakers should be. The thing is yes you should trust your ears ultimately but I believe measurements are essential as you are running blind without it. For large peaks or dips adjustments are needed or with pairing drivers, and the sound characteristics or preference itself can be tailored to your liking after that.
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Just be aware that with USB mics you cannot get the proper phase data in REW that you can with a reference channel with a line in mic. It will depend on how you want to use the measurements as to whether this will be a problem or not.
I'm not sure about ARTA and USB mics.
Tony.
I'm not sure about ARTA and USB mics.
Tony.
oh really, I wasn't aware of any limits with USB mics. Now I'm a little confused. The omnimic and its software is looking more and more appealing all the time even if it does cost significantly more than anything else out there.
The problem is if you don't use a reference channel in REW it just sets time zero at the impulse peak, and you do not get any relative phase differences between different drivers.
This is not an issue if you extract minimum phase and enter all of the correct offsets in your crossover sim. See the vituixcad documentation on doing measurements. https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_Preparations_REW.pdf
Holmimpulse should work with usb mics because you can lock time zero (provided the latency of the mic is constant).
Tony.
This is not an issue if you extract minimum phase and enter all of the correct offsets in your crossover sim. See the vituixcad documentation on doing measurements. https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_Preparations_REW.pdf
Holmimpulse should work with usb mics because you can lock time zero (provided the latency of the mic is constant).
Tony.
Please forgive me I am a little bit green behind the ears, even though I've been an audiophile for roughly 35 years 🙂 I have limited knowledge on designing speakers. What my intention is, is to make speakers which I've already done, but now I want to tune them to their optimum capability and obviously to my listening preferences at the end of that.
I'm using fairly basic what I've got hold of and within near similar use crossovers at the moment, but the plan is going active with the crossover next as I do not know anywhere near enough to be building tinkering with crossovers like the leaders in their field can. Its just beyond my now limited electronics knowledge. Active crossovers however are a different thing and tweaking via a computer and watching the speakers frequency response how the drivers are overlapping / pairing should make things a lot more simple for someone like me. I probably go for something like the Dayton audio 408 crossover as a start and I'm looking for the best tool to enable me to do this.
I'm not familiar with the omnimic (but a quick search it shows up as being around $400US) . But I think probably a focusrite scarlett solo + an IMM6 with an adapter and a battery box (basically just a couple of aa batteries, a 2.2k resistor and a cap) would come in at less that $150.
I've got a scarlett 2i2 first gen and a walin preamp, and a home made mic (but I did get an IMM6 as well so I had something calibrated). Something like the berhinger ECM8000 would also be an option with something like a scarlett solo. There are cheaper USB sound cards available as well which would do the trick.
Tony.
I've got a scarlett 2i2 first gen and a walin preamp, and a home made mic (but I did get an IMM6 as well so I had something calibrated). Something like the berhinger ECM8000 would also be an option with something like a scarlett solo. There are cheaper USB sound cards available as well which would do the trick.
Tony.
OK yes for that purpose the single channel measurements should not be an issue. 🙂 If you are doing serious design work, especially with muliple off axis measurements then it may become an issue.
Tony.
Tony.
Hmm, its never simple is it 🙂 When I wrote the thread I was kind of hoping someone might have just chipped in and said just get this or that but as with anything it's a bit of a minefield.
Even though the Dayton Omnimic V2 has all the bells and whistles I think I need, plus the ability to do it live and on the fly there are some way cheaper options out there which may give me the same ability without the expense. Plus the extra that might be lying install for me later with the more advanced features as you have mentioned perhaps. And perhaps money would be better spent which is all I am looking to do here get the best possible option for my money overall.
The separate option bit seems to just be complicating me even though it may work out to be a great saving. Say for instance getting an interface like this with a cheaper mic
Focusrite Scarlett Solo 3rd Gen USB Audio Interface: Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments
Behringer ECM8000 Omnidirectional Measurement Condenser Microphone: Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments
Using pink noise with an nth octave analyzer can tell you a lot about a speakers frequency response character. I proposed a test system for < $50 suitable for having a quick look at some speaker, in another thread here.
It may be as well suitable for what you're wanting to do, as it can show aspects of a speaker's sound you may have no idea it's doing via "untrained" ears. All measured frequency levels being relative on a db scale, versus absolute (calibrated) can still tell you a lot.
Running a few speaker designs through this phone based tester and its easy to see how they all sound different, via the relative value frequency response plots. I'd wager anyone but a very experienced listener would be hard pressed to describe the sonic differences between them using words alone. The original idea was to be able to assess the sound of a speaker - quickly and easily - before bringing it home.
I imagine after sorting through a few dozen units, you'd not need the phone-based analyzer anymore - you could tell if a speaker is making a sound you like just by listening to it play pink noise. A portable setup to do that is ~$10, batteries not included.
It may be as well suitable for what you're wanting to do, as it can show aspects of a speaker's sound you may have no idea it's doing via "untrained" ears. All measured frequency levels being relative on a db scale, versus absolute (calibrated) can still tell you a lot.
Running a few speaker designs through this phone based tester and its easy to see how they all sound different, via the relative value frequency response plots. I'd wager anyone but a very experienced listener would be hard pressed to describe the sonic differences between them using words alone. The original idea was to be able to assess the sound of a speaker - quickly and easily - before bringing it home.
I imagine after sorting through a few dozen units, you'd not need the phone-based analyzer anymore - you could tell if a speaker is making a sound you like just by listening to it play pink noise. A portable setup to do that is ~$10, batteries not included.
Its integrating different drive units to one another and crossing over frequencies I am really interested in. You can hear it but you can't fully have control of it without some analysis, also you can hear what's there with just playing music but not what's missing and how the room maybe affecting it. Otherwise you are just playing with a graphic equalizer to get something that sounds ok to your ears. That is also fine but integrating drivers properly is a better place to start from I think.
I have a Dayton EMM-6 microphone, a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 along with REW software. I am not a speaker design expert, but I have found that I could measure T/S parameters, frequency response and phase of my DIY speakers with this setup. I have been able to analyze the results and adjust my crossover and filters to get the sound that I wanted.
Another bonus, with this setup, I can also measure and analyze the distortion spectra of my DIY amplifiers.
Another bonus, with this setup, I can also measure and analyze the distortion spectra of my DIY amplifiers.
Thats roughly £130 + £150 for mic and interface and that'll be using free software then.
The Dayton V2 is £270 plus dedicated software and all designed to work with each other. For me it seems the better option unless using 2i2 gives better option.
I really think that newbies should get accurate and easy to use measurement systems, like the clio pocket. The lack of knowledge makes it unsuitable for newbies to put together a system of their own with less accurate gear. Advanced users however can use even cheap stuff with great success because they understand and can compensate for errors in a none optimal measurement chain
Yes I'm all for that but which one, the price on the clio is double the price of the V2 even, its enough to put newbies right off. But I agree something simple and accurate would be nice.
I have seen the Dayton microphone advertised for about US $60 and €70 on different web sites.