Hello, This is my first thread on Pass Labs but I have been following and dreaming of buying or building Nelson Pass components for awhile now. I would very much like to assemble these separate components but as I live on a Catamaran Sailboat I have unique opportunities that others on here do not have regarding space and power supplies. I wish to use all battery power for a stereo F5, a Pass pre, an electronic crossover and also Amp Camp amps either in the same case or the AC amps in the kit enclosures on here with the rest of the components in one 4U enclosure. Not only to save money but also to save space. I have a large 12 volt battery bank charged by shore power and also over 300 watts of delivered 12v solar panel output which I plan to double the size of in the near future. I plan on using 4 small 12 volt batteries wired to give the needed +/- 24 volts but hooked up to be charged separately with 12V through the use of power diodes.
I would like any help that others on here could give me to get this project started. I have noted that the F5, Amp camp amps, some Pass Preamps and the xover on here all run on 24 volts and in my situation I would not have to make or purchase power supplies for each individual component. This seems to make sense to me in my situation and I would like to get others opinions with much more experience than me to weigh in on any of the advantages and pitfalls of such a system.
My speakers are custom built-in boxes with Focal 5.25"s, SB Acoustics soft Dome tweets and custom 12db 2K passive crossovers all designed with WinISD which is a excellent speaker box and x-over design tool. I have a 60 watt Int tube amp and a 60 watt Int SS amp that I run Bi Amped through the Tape Loop and must say the results are astounding compared to these amps individually. Nelson Pass in one of his articles speaks of the EFFICIENCY of both Bi-Amping and electronic X-overs and how each gives a 6db increase which if thought of as only at the top end is huge. This is why I strive to make this system a reality for my use because of the efficiency of the finished system compared to the seeming complexity of the design and execution of these components together. This system would also run off the power from engines or solar while sailing which I use a car amp for now and to say the least is much less than desired when underway.
Thanks in Advance.
I would like any help that others on here could give me to get this project started. I have noted that the F5, Amp camp amps, some Pass Preamps and the xover on here all run on 24 volts and in my situation I would not have to make or purchase power supplies for each individual component. This seems to make sense to me in my situation and I would like to get others opinions with much more experience than me to weigh in on any of the advantages and pitfalls of such a system.
My speakers are custom built-in boxes with Focal 5.25"s, SB Acoustics soft Dome tweets and custom 12db 2K passive crossovers all designed with WinISD which is a excellent speaker box and x-over design tool. I have a 60 watt Int tube amp and a 60 watt Int SS amp that I run Bi Amped through the Tape Loop and must say the results are astounding compared to these amps individually. Nelson Pass in one of his articles speaks of the EFFICIENCY of both Bi-Amping and electronic X-overs and how each gives a 6db increase which if thought of as only at the top end is huge. This is why I strive to make this system a reality for my use because of the efficiency of the finished system compared to the seeming complexity of the design and execution of these components together. This system would also run off the power from engines or solar while sailing which I use a car amp for now and to say the least is much less than desired when underway.
Thanks in Advance.
Papa's beast of a thousand Jfets ran on lead acid batteries.
You can certainly do it.
Pretty sure truck batteries are 24V if that made things simpler.
You can certainly do it.
Pretty sure truck batteries are 24V if that made things simpler.
For me, it(nearly) makes no sense in biamping a two-way speaker. It makes sense for a subwoofer, or for a 3 way where the power ratio allows for that sensible choice.
I mean, 100 W woofer, 50 W midrange and 10 W tweeter...it makes sense in an efficiency research scenario, where the power dissipated by the passive crossover could be usefully re-used.
I wouldn't suggest the use of class D amplifiers, but when talking about battery powered systems, going from the 25 % efficiency of a class A to 95 % of class D ( urgh!) should be imperative...
I mean, 100 W woofer, 50 W midrange and 10 W tweeter...it makes sense in an efficiency research scenario, where the power dissipated by the passive crossover could be usefully re-used.
I wouldn't suggest the use of class D amplifiers, but when talking about battery powered systems, going from the 25 % efficiency of a class A to 95 % of class D ( urgh!) should be imperative...
make Korg B1 preamp for all sweetness you need in system, use D Class amp for speakers
for K. B1 you can use decent DC-DC converter , to get from 12 to 24V
for K. B1 you can use decent DC-DC converter , to get from 12 to 24V
Marine battery systems, whether charging from shore power, solar charge controllers or running on their own, are not the clean, pure source of 24V that we would like them to be. Under charging conditions, the voltage varies between bulk, absorb and float charging intervals, and may vary from 13.8V to as high as 15V per nominal 12V cell, depending on the method used by the charge controller in use at the time. Solar charge controllers will often use different charging programs than shore power charge controllers. Then there is the discharging voltage, which will start at 12.5V per cell for fresh batteries, and drain down to 11.5V, at which time the load should be cut off to prevent damage to the lead-acid chemistry and plate geometry. This translates into a raw output voltage range from 23V to 30V from the 'house' batteries.
So, in order to provide clean and constant 24V to your class A amplifiers, you will need some very good power supply regulators, including substantial banks of capacitors to maintain a low output impedance.
So, in order to provide clean and constant 24V to your class A amplifiers, you will need some very good power supply regulators, including substantial banks of capacitors to maintain a low output impedance.
I will try to answer all with one message as I am a newbie with replies but thanks for all the input and will clarify a little. I already have a large 12v power supply(12v Lead acid 6 volt golf cart batteries for my house bank) and having four small surplus 12v batteries mounted in series would supply + and -24 volts on either side of 0 volts at the middle but would allow you charge them with the 12v house bank and separate them with the one way valves(diodes) which would limit the voltage swing somewhat and i already have hundreds of high power diodes for use in alternators, solar and wind charging systems(50 volt/10 Amp) These surplus batteries you can get for $10 to $20 each(Basically Motorcycle or Garden LawnMower size) and would be alot less than purchasing the individual power supplies for all the separate components.
Bi-amping doesn't make sense unless you understand the physics of it but it is definitely 2+2=6. It's because the power goes up on a logarithmic scale and so does the efficiency of bi-amplification and also the Electronic Crossover(they both give you 6db increase Each as per Nelson Pass(You tell the God he is wrong)). Hooking it up this way gives a 12db increase which is like having a 4 times larger amp for both highs and lows on the top end of the power range and actually everywhere but I like my music LOUD. Meaning a standard F5 would sound like a 100 watt Pure CLASS A amp and an ACA would sound like a 32 watt per channel amp. It's about efficiency of design and not the Pure Class A amp that I was speaking of. The next answer is with my battery and solar panel setup I am always charged to full capacity before 11am so give away hundreds of watts everyday because my batteries are full and not charging no matter what the sun or panel could put out. This is why I am not worried at all about the efficiency of the Pure Class A amps. I give away enough energy everyday to listen for four or five hours if I wish. And when I double the capacity of my solar panels it will even matter less.
And I have read many posts from you Zen Mod and actually this Preamp design and kit on here is what made me actually get the courage to post and ask for answers to this system. It's about designing this system as a whole from the get go so I do not waste time or money but make steps along the way and start with the F5 and Korg Pre. Then add a simple 12db 2K crossover from there with the ACAmps last. These will only be needed away from the dock when sailing as I will use my integrated tube amp for the highs when hooked up to shore power.
TungstenAudio I would agree with everything you said in your reply but the voltage swing will be somewhat limited by my hook up and through the diodes and I usually only listen a couple hours a day and will have plenty of time to recharge either through solar or shore power. The small batteries and electronics hooked to them behind the hi power diodes will see a voltage drop of around .8 volts from the house battery so that will lessen the difference between the two different banks of batteries and between one discharging(4-12v for +/- 24v) and one charging itself and them through said diodes(12v House). The lower the voltage of the small Amplifier batteries the More the voltage comes from the larger battery bank which somewhat stabilizes the voltages. I also plan to use very quick surplus 12v rechargeable lithium ion or similar design used for backup power supplies for computers which can quickly supply current and transient shifts much better than a lead acid battery bank and these batteries will power nothing on the boat but these stereo electronics and always being charged during use by the Lead Acid House battery bank. The second part of your reply is why I wanted to speak to others because I would not know how to hook up the caps without a little encouragement. I would not know how much MFD's to add either but would think they would be hooked up inline but do not know the proper way in this situation. Meaning to split them evenly between the + and -V like in a normal AC to DC power supply? This is why I am asking for info and pointers. I know enough to be Dangerous but I have been wanting to start this thread for months and build my own Nelson Pass amp since the old A75 days.
That was before DIYAudio, the store, simply available boards and kits from here and want to say to everyone on here how much I like and respect all the camaraderie on these threads, forums and how great this site is. I have seen nowhere on the web the patience and helping hand I have seen here without the snide or insulting remarks of so many other social media sites and forums. It's simply refreshing to see such helpful and nice people from all walks of life and knowledge, but with one over riding goal and that is learning about music and electronics which bring us Joy. Bravo diyAudio and Pass Labs!!!
Bi-amping doesn't make sense unless you understand the physics of it but it is definitely 2+2=6. It's because the power goes up on a logarithmic scale and so does the efficiency of bi-amplification and also the Electronic Crossover(they both give you 6db increase Each as per Nelson Pass(You tell the God he is wrong)). Hooking it up this way gives a 12db increase which is like having a 4 times larger amp for both highs and lows on the top end of the power range and actually everywhere but I like my music LOUD. Meaning a standard F5 would sound like a 100 watt Pure CLASS A amp and an ACA would sound like a 32 watt per channel amp. It's about efficiency of design and not the Pure Class A amp that I was speaking of. The next answer is with my battery and solar panel setup I am always charged to full capacity before 11am so give away hundreds of watts everyday because my batteries are full and not charging no matter what the sun or panel could put out. This is why I am not worried at all about the efficiency of the Pure Class A amps. I give away enough energy everyday to listen for four or five hours if I wish. And when I double the capacity of my solar panels it will even matter less.
And I have read many posts from you Zen Mod and actually this Preamp design and kit on here is what made me actually get the courage to post and ask for answers to this system. It's about designing this system as a whole from the get go so I do not waste time or money but make steps along the way and start with the F5 and Korg Pre. Then add a simple 12db 2K crossover from there with the ACAmps last. These will only be needed away from the dock when sailing as I will use my integrated tube amp for the highs when hooked up to shore power.
TungstenAudio I would agree with everything you said in your reply but the voltage swing will be somewhat limited by my hook up and through the diodes and I usually only listen a couple hours a day and will have plenty of time to recharge either through solar or shore power. The small batteries and electronics hooked to them behind the hi power diodes will see a voltage drop of around .8 volts from the house battery so that will lessen the difference between the two different banks of batteries and between one discharging(4-12v for +/- 24v) and one charging itself and them through said diodes(12v House). The lower the voltage of the small Amplifier batteries the More the voltage comes from the larger battery bank which somewhat stabilizes the voltages. I also plan to use very quick surplus 12v rechargeable lithium ion or similar design used for backup power supplies for computers which can quickly supply current and transient shifts much better than a lead acid battery bank and these batteries will power nothing on the boat but these stereo electronics and always being charged during use by the Lead Acid House battery bank. The second part of your reply is why I wanted to speak to others because I would not know how to hook up the caps without a little encouragement. I would not know how much MFD's to add either but would think they would be hooked up inline but do not know the proper way in this situation. Meaning to split them evenly between the + and -V like in a normal AC to DC power supply? This is why I am asking for info and pointers. I know enough to be Dangerous but I have been wanting to start this thread for months and build my own Nelson Pass amp since the old A75 days.
That was before DIYAudio, the store, simply available boards and kits from here and want to say to everyone on here how much I like and respect all the camaraderie on these threads, forums and how great this site is. I have seen nowhere on the web the patience and helping hand I have seen here without the snide or insulting remarks of so many other social media sites and forums. It's simply refreshing to see such helpful and nice people from all walks of life and knowledge, but with one over riding goal and that is learning about music and electronics which bring us Joy. Bravo diyAudio and Pass Labs!!!
Which Class D amp do you use in your Reference System? Lol Straight wire with gain! And I will take Nelson's "Sweet Spot" over efficiency anyday. I have seen your Build List so don't lie. Thanks for your reply and I really want a F5, but hooked up this way so it sounds waaay bigger in my small Salon. Upper seating area for you Landlubbers on here. It's a system I can use both at the dock and when sailing or cruising and would work for me. And if I don't like the battery setup I could always add a AC power supply which I also plan to purchase at the same time and have as a backup and separate system for if either of them fail or have problems. For me it's more about flexibility than economy or saving a few hundred dollars. I want both but would think the battery system would have a very quiet noise floor and want to start with the battery system. I want to learn...
So you have a plan and the pass parts are a known so what are we talking about? Developing a power supply which will make the effort worth it. So if class A pass amplification is a requirement when under sail a pretty serious effort will have to go into that PS. I would start in power supplies or the pass labs forum and find any FW run with a battery PS, I’m sure it’s already happened.
Just look at any firstwatt powersupply. The batteries are wired up in the same way that the secondaries of the transformer are wired up and the caps are wired up in the same way.
^ Well, except that you need to leave out the bridge rectifiers.
I would still recommend a low dropout capacitance multiplier with a stack of zener diodes to set the output voltage.
I would still recommend a low dropout capacitance multiplier with a stack of zener diodes to set the output voltage.
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Yeah.
No bridge rectifiers for dc.
Hahaha
I would regulate too.
When you have so many different electrical devices maintaining your batteries it's a good idea to regulate the output.
No bridge rectifiers for dc.
Hahaha
I would regulate too.
When you have so many different electrical devices maintaining your batteries it's a good idea to regulate the output.
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This is what I was speaking of. I would just like a little guidance on exactly how to hook this up and what to add, subtract, keep or similar with different values because of a battery supply differing from the normal AC supply and it seems as if I will get that answer from such knowledge on here. I know I will not need the Mains or the Bridge, but beyond that I do not know but seems the next reply spells it out in terms that I do not understand but I am sure with a little time the answer will be revealed. Thanks so much for your reply and to tell you the truth I have never seen a battery in a FirstWatt PS and would like the reference to the paper or sch diagram you speak of and how or why it was used besides the one mentioned above. I will look into the beast of an amp paper or articles further. Thanks.
When I posted nothing came up in Pass Labs pertaining to batteries and what I seek is just a little guidance to do a battery dc PS worthy of, and to correctly drive a standard F5 and a Korg based preamp that has enough voltage/amperage/output to easily run two amps in a bi amp configuration. Then I can move onto the Elect Xover afterwards by incorporating a 24v version with the desired frequencies. Thanks so much for your reply.
I originally intended to also connect 0V between the 2 batteries but then you are going to need perfectly matched batteries in terms, of internal resistance, storage capacity, state of charge etc (bloody headache).
It's going to be simpler to do it this way.
Just very basic concept.
It is very easy to expand on this, to make something quite decent
It's going to be simpler to do it this way.
Just very basic concept.
It is very easy to expand on this, to make something quite decent
Attachments
Batteries are always a good idea.
Adds some additional costs and complexity but if you're happy with that then yeah, it's good.
Adds some additional costs and complexity but if you're happy with that then yeah, it's good.
generally, having output capacitor could be good idea, taking in account sorta sliding rails (in time)
naah
first nothing at all, then simple cap multi with bigbadass Bjts if needed
output cap and that's it
no need for over-engineering - just more to take care will it go south or not
and every volt is sparse
first nothing at all, then simple cap multi with bigbadass Bjts if needed
output cap and that's it
no need for over-engineering - just more to take care will it go south or not
and every volt is sparse