Sounds like you are listening to your system and not to music. No old recordings of Robert Johnson, Caruso, and Lead Belly for you?
Silly thread. I bet there's a bunch of car guys on a car forum arguing about what "drivable" means
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not a thread that was altogether wasted because I just realized that Lead Belly is a folk singer not just your weird nick'
Well I certainly notice a "difference" in a well done recording vs a s***** one. I do have some material in the digital archive that is absolutely, unquestioningly unlistenable. Unsure of how it got that way from the original producer...
I wonder if it would be possible to even get agreement on "this recording does sound good, that recording really does sound like s***"? Actual, undoctored commercial recordings only. Maybe a couple of dropbox files everyone could download, have a listen?
I agree with the "less number of instruments all playing simultaneously" recordings generally sound better - and if that's due to IM, so be it. Is it fair to assume this IM comes mostly from the speaker, fully swamping whatever contribution the amp is making? For the case of HIFI music reproduction - not musical instrument amplification.
Is it fair to assume that most any dynamic speaker's IM goes up quick with SPL - sure seems so -
I wonder if it would be possible to even get agreement on "this recording does sound good, that recording really does sound like s***"? Actual, undoctored commercial recordings only. Maybe a couple of dropbox files everyone could download, have a listen?
I agree with the "less number of instruments all playing simultaneously" recordings generally sound better - and if that's due to IM, so be it. Is it fair to assume this IM comes mostly from the speaker, fully swamping whatever contribution the amp is making? For the case of HIFI music reproduction - not musical instrument amplification.
Is it fair to assume that most any dynamic speaker's IM goes up quick with SPL - sure seems so -
The Sophia Electric amps i saw pics from were much cheaper. Still, looked horrendous inside.
Not me, Im just repeating what Ive read on this site dozen of times and in tube gear audiophool reviews in the rags.
I wouldn't disagree with the spirit of your posting, but the above statement is not quite right. The 2nd harmonic (twice the frequency) is just an increase by an octave. And the 4th harmonic, 8th harmonic, etc. (i.e. powers of 2) are increases by further octaves. But the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th etc. (the ones that are not powers of 2) do not correspond to increases by octaves. Some are more "harmonious" than others.
When I was 5 years old Lead Belly was my favorite singer and I knew many of his songs by heart. Must have been a little strange to see a small blond haired boy wandering around singing hard core blues. 😉
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George Harrison was quoted as saying “if there was no Lead Belly, there would have been no Lonnie Donegan; no Lonnie Donegan, no Beatles."
If you do not want to hear the 3rd harmonic, then do not listen to the recording of
a clarinet. The 3rd harmonic is dominant.
And some other instruments are similar.
Instruments have harmonic distortion.
My favorite recording of Electric Bass Fuzz Distortion is from 7/12/60.
"Don't Worry" ('Bout Me) by Marty Robbins.
The push pull bass guitar amplifier blew an output tube, and they wanted to fix the amplifier, and record another cut.
But when they listened to it, they decided to keep that cut.
Serendipity is great.
a clarinet. The 3rd harmonic is dominant.
And some other instruments are similar.
Instruments have harmonic distortion.
My favorite recording of Electric Bass Fuzz Distortion is from 7/12/60.
"Don't Worry" ('Bout Me) by Marty Robbins.
The push pull bass guitar amplifier blew an output tube, and they wanted to fix the amplifier, and record another cut.
But when they listened to it, they decided to keep that cut.
Serendipity is great.
Back in the 70's and 80's I made guitar amps and did repairs. A friend brings in a Fender Bandmaster and it's got one 6L6GC and one EL34 in it. I asked WTF? and he replied that he and a friend who had a Marshall started messing around swapping tubes to arrive at a better (different) tone. He liked it that way and nothing was overheating, so I fixed whatever ailment it had and never saw it again.....but I had to try it myself.
I would wind up making a few guitar amps with "lopsided" power amps over the years. The 6L6GC / EL34 was the most popular, with the KT88 / EL34 right behind. I kinda liked the lower powered version with one 6L6GC, paired with two 6V6's in parallel. Nice bluesy tone turned down, good lead guitar scream when cranked.
It is certainly true that musical instruments are not pure sine wave generators; that is what makes them interesting and pleasing to listen to. And this could include the case of an electric guitar, where the distortions in the guitar amplifier help to create the characteristic guitar sound.
But that is a different matter altogether from wantonly introducing harmonic distortion in the audio reproduction system. There would seem to be no up-side to having distortions introduced by the amplifier and speakers in the listening room.
The 3rd harmonic present in the clarinet waveform does not lead to an intermodulation distortion involving the other instruments in the orchestra. Whereas a 3rd harmonic (or any harmonic) distortion in the amplifier in the listening room will result in undesirable intermodulation distortions.
Tubelab_com,
As always, you have amazing and wonderful stories to tell.
Thanks from a Test and Measurement man that supported
all the Cell Phone industry manufacturers of RF amplifiers.
As always, you have amazing and wonderful stories to tell.
Thanks from a Test and Measurement man that supported
all the Cell Phone industry manufacturers of RF amplifiers.
cnpope,
You are absolutely correct.
Point well taken.
Almost 60 years ago, I did oscilloscope studies of instrument waveforms.
A French horn that sounds as smooth as a peach, had harmonic distortion that was very easily seen, even across the room.
If any amplifier of mine ever did that to a sine wave, I would tear it apart and re-design it,
or I would throw the amplifier out.
Just so you will know, the French horn player then played again, and produced the cleanest looking sine wave you can imagine on the scope.
But he went to Cornell U., was a real expert, and could also play pedal tones that most professionals could not.
And do not forget, the amplifier is not the only producer of harmonic distortion and not the only producer of intermodulation distortion.
Most loudspeakers have far more of those distortions, and add FM distortion too.
If anybody has a Hi Fi or Stereo system that they can not enjoy listening to, then I recommend that they do one of the following:
Fix their system
Attend Live concerts (Oh, the Pandemic . . . )
Or stop listening to music.
Discussions about amplifier topologies does not make your amplifier sound any better, you have to properly implement
at least one of the good ideas (build, modify, or have an expert do it for you).
You are absolutely correct.
Point well taken.
Almost 60 years ago, I did oscilloscope studies of instrument waveforms.
A French horn that sounds as smooth as a peach, had harmonic distortion that was very easily seen, even across the room.
If any amplifier of mine ever did that to a sine wave, I would tear it apart and re-design it,
or I would throw the amplifier out.
Just so you will know, the French horn player then played again, and produced the cleanest looking sine wave you can imagine on the scope.
But he went to Cornell U., was a real expert, and could also play pedal tones that most professionals could not.
And do not forget, the amplifier is not the only producer of harmonic distortion and not the only producer of intermodulation distortion.
Most loudspeakers have far more of those distortions, and add FM distortion too.
If anybody has a Hi Fi or Stereo system that they can not enjoy listening to, then I recommend that they do one of the following:
Fix their system
Attend Live concerts (Oh, the Pandemic . . . )
Or stop listening to music.
Discussions about amplifier topologies does not make your amplifier sound any better, you have to properly implement
at least one of the good ideas (build, modify, or have an expert do it for you).
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One thing that makes audio so difficult to discuss between the different camps is the different meanings for the same words.
Warm, Tubey, Detailed, Full...
We end up with people arguing different things but with the same words. Just say "records sound better" to the wrong crowd and dozens will explain that it isn't 'better'; ignoring the part about 'sound' which makes it a completely subjective opinion.
I cringe when most people say something sounds tubey because I assume that they have only heard the bad tube amps and consider that to be the 'tube' sound.
And that isn't even taking into consideration what their speakers, which really do vary a lot in sound, are doing to the final product or their room or the placement within the room.