Hi all,
I've done a fair bit of searching and reading, and all this sounds more like algebra than English to me, so I hope this isn't a lost cause.
I'm trying to get some help to repair my old Logitech Z-5500 PC speakers in another thread, and something someone said kicked off a curiosity bug in my head about speaker building.
So I started researching and now I really want to build myself a set of small deskop speakers to replace the Bose bookshelfs that I'm using now.
I really like the Needles, I just don't have the room for them in my office, and they will need to sit on my desk, not on the floor.
I have a decent workshop, so the actual box construction shouldn't be too hard, and I can usually solder without burning down the house.
My problem is that I have not a single clue where to start in regards to driver selection or enclosure design, plus I'm cheap (read: poor) and don't have a ton of extra time for a lengthy build.
Where should I start? I'm looking for something that will sound as good or better than my Z-5500s with these Bose bookshelf speakers (sorry, can't find a model number) serving as the left/right channels. I'd also like them to be smaller than my current boxes, which are about 15"tall x 10"wide x 7"deep.
I'm driving all this off the Z-5500 amp and sub, which I plan to keep unless there's a compelling reason not to?
Any advice appreciated!
-Mike
I've done a fair bit of searching and reading, and all this sounds more like algebra than English to me, so I hope this isn't a lost cause.
I'm trying to get some help to repair my old Logitech Z-5500 PC speakers in another thread, and something someone said kicked off a curiosity bug in my head about speaker building.
So I started researching and now I really want to build myself a set of small deskop speakers to replace the Bose bookshelfs that I'm using now.
I really like the Needles, I just don't have the room for them in my office, and they will need to sit on my desk, not on the floor.
I have a decent workshop, so the actual box construction shouldn't be too hard, and I can usually solder without burning down the house.
My problem is that I have not a single clue where to start in regards to driver selection or enclosure design, plus I'm cheap (read: poor) and don't have a ton of extra time for a lengthy build.
Where should I start? I'm looking for something that will sound as good or better than my Z-5500s with these Bose bookshelf speakers (sorry, can't find a model number) serving as the left/right channels. I'd also like them to be smaller than my current boxes, which are about 15"tall x 10"wide x 7"deep.
I'm driving all this off the Z-5500 amp and sub, which I plan to keep unless there's a compelling reason not to?
Any advice appreciated!
-Mike
Quite a few people hate Bose, but I like the sound of them.
I would keep them instead of building something new.
I suspect the Bose will be hard to beat with your own build.
I would go for 6" drivers at least to get some bass.
I am a "big speaker" man with my full ranger Fane 12-250TC pair but not a chance of getting them on a desk !
I would keep them instead of building something new.
I suspect the Bose will be hard to beat with your own build.
I would go for 6" drivers at least to get some bass.
I am a "big speaker" man with my full ranger Fane 12-250TC pair but not a chance of getting them on a desk !
I like the Bose a lot, they are just too big for my desk. They keep falling over and hitting my monitor. Also, I have no need for big bass from the desktop speakers, the 10" subwoofer under my desk handles that very nicely.
Besides, I've been bitten by the building bug bad. 😉
Besides, I've been bitten by the building bug bad. 😉
Something like the FF85wk, or is that total overkill? I love the pricing of the TangBand 881s also, but spend a LOT of time in front of this system, so I really need it to sound good. I've been generally very happy with my current setup (other than the size), but I'm not sure if it's just because I have nothing to compare it to, or if it's really that good.
The Woden Lance with a Fostex FF85WK. I've built three pairs and they are great for computer setups but also decent enough to use as small speakers for the house. I've always told myself that I could live with them as my only speakers when it is time to downsize our house. They are an easy build too. All of the wood is two widths, 8" for the side panels and 4" everywhere else (or a metric equivalent). No soldering required if you use quick connects.
Lance Plans
Lance Plans
The Lance looks good, and certainly easy enough to build. A little larger than I'd hoped, though, especially the depth. They're actually about an inch deeper than my current Bose boxes. How do you think the sound of these would compare to something like a uFonken? So far, that's about the smallest design I've seen that uses a fairly powerful driver. Am I being unrealistic in expecting something so small to sound anything like my existing setup? Will there be any issues running whatever I build off the plate amp in the Z-5500 sub?
Maybe. Depends on what/if there's any EQ being applied within the subwoofer, and whether that fits with the drivers you choose.
I'd suggest that the best thing you can do when getting into building speakers (and I've built a few) would be to pick up a Behringer UMC audio interface (one with an XLR input) and a measurement mic. Their ECM8000 is okay, but there are better mics out there if you've got the cash.
Once you've got a measurement setup, check out Equaliser APO, RePhase and REW.
FWIW, these days I'm using a pair of Kef eggs (HTS3001SE) with the ports blocked and some low-frequency boost (look up Linkwitz transform). Sounds great, gets sensibly loud for a desktop system, and goes deeper into the bass than most - I've aimed for 35Hz.
Chris
Your goals sound like mine...and I built these:
TABAQ with FaitalPro 3FE22
For about £25 worth of bits (the wood was free). Easy build, and they sound fabulous. Check out the main TABAQ thread as well:
TABAQ TL for Tang Band
oh, and I haven't built a pair of these (yet), but you might take a look at this thread for an amazingly small speaker that sounds great, and can be built from foam core board!:
Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FD's
Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FD's
There are a few options, but we need to know more about that sub to make something to fit it. What is the crossover frequency (as how low needs the fullrange driver go) and efficiency. And what is your budget.
I would probally build something like a Alpair-7MS in a 5L sealed with a crossover at 100Hz to the (active i suppose) subwoofer. That would be a great speaker that sounds way better than your Bose, and is easy to build. Basicly that could be a box made of 12mm plywood of 170cm wide, 190cm deep an 230cm high, or in 18mm MDF 170cm wide, 250cm high and 210cm deep (but i advice to build it in plywood, it's much better). You could ad bracing, but in such a small box there is hardly any space to do that, and not much use neighter i think.
I would probally build something like a Alpair-7MS in a 5L sealed with a crossover at 100Hz to the (active i suppose) subwoofer. That would be a great speaker that sounds way better than your Bose, and is easy to build. Basicly that could be a box made of 12mm plywood of 170cm wide, 190cm deep an 230cm high, or in 18mm MDF 170cm wide, 250cm high and 210cm deep (but i advice to build it in plywood, it's much better). You could ad bracing, but in such a small box there is hardly any space to do that, and not much use neighter i think.
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I'm a fan of the Woden-Baby Labs for the size you want. The choice of drivers is plentiful and can be fairly inexpensive. I've built a couple of pairs and wouldn't hesitate to build more, especially for small desktop speakers. I think they're hard to beat for the size and price.
Another option is the MarkAudio CHR-70 in this enclosure:
Mark Audio CHR-70.3 A project
Mark Audio drivers are very nice and designed for full-range use.
Depending on what you mean by "cheap" there are countless designs available. The Parts Express Project Gallery is a great place to look:
Parts Express Project Gallery
Another option is the MarkAudio CHR-70 in this enclosure:
Mark Audio CHR-70.3 A project
Mark Audio drivers are very nice and designed for full-range use.
Depending on what you mean by "cheap" there are countless designs available. The Parts Express Project Gallery is a great place to look:
Parts Express Project Gallery
Thanks for the info Chris. I have no doubt that this is the 'right' way to go about it, but I just don't have the time, patience, and above all money to get that deep into it at this point. I'm not looking to learn a new career, lord know I have enough hobbies and interests already. lol
I really just thought it would be fun to slap together a set of small speakers, and it seemed from what I was reading on this board that it would be doable without too much fuss.
With this in mind, what budget are you thinking? There are plenty of great designs with which to get your feet wet.
Thanks for all the replies folks. I'm being overwhelmed with kindness. I like it!
The Karlsonator looks pretty good, but I can't tell what the size is. The photos I've seen look fairly large, but I get that it can be built at various scales.
The budget question is a fair one, since "cheap" means vastly different things to different people. If I could build a set for under $25 that would be awesome, but I'm being realistic. I'm gonna say I'd like to keep my BoM to $100US or less, including any enclosure materials if possible. I know the drivers are the lion's share of the budget, and if there's a compelling reason, I'm willing to stretch that a little, as long as we don't get silly.
I was browsing P-E.com the other night, and ran across these HiVi B3S for only $10 each. How would they compare to say, the Tang Band W3-881SJ for roughly 3x the price? Speaking of TB, what's the difference between the 881SJ and 881SJF?
Am I barking up the wrong tree entirely here, considering that I'm shooting for similar or better sound than from my current Bose boxes, but from a smaller enclosure? Should I be looking for something more like the Fostex FF85WKs, which I can get for about $52 each?
Like I said, I get easily confused with data overload when I start looking at all the options of drivers and enclosures. I'm like a diabetic fat kid in a candy store! 😱😀
As far as the amp is concerned, what's the easiest way to determine the x-over specs for it? Should those be published somewhere?
Edit: Here are the amp/speaker specs published by Logitech. I know it's all marketing fluff, but any of this useful info?
Product Specifications
The Karlsonator looks pretty good, but I can't tell what the size is. The photos I've seen look fairly large, but I get that it can be built at various scales.
The budget question is a fair one, since "cheap" means vastly different things to different people. If I could build a set for under $25 that would be awesome, but I'm being realistic. I'm gonna say I'd like to keep my BoM to $100US or less, including any enclosure materials if possible. I know the drivers are the lion's share of the budget, and if there's a compelling reason, I'm willing to stretch that a little, as long as we don't get silly.
I was browsing P-E.com the other night, and ran across these HiVi B3S for only $10 each. How would they compare to say, the Tang Band W3-881SJ for roughly 3x the price? Speaking of TB, what's the difference between the 881SJ and 881SJF?
Am I barking up the wrong tree entirely here, considering that I'm shooting for similar or better sound than from my current Bose boxes, but from a smaller enclosure? Should I be looking for something more like the Fostex FF85WKs, which I can get for about $52 each?
Like I said, I get easily confused with data overload when I start looking at all the options of drivers and enclosures. I'm like a diabetic fat kid in a candy store! 😱😀
As far as the amp is concerned, what's the easiest way to determine the x-over specs for it? Should those be published somewhere?
Edit: Here are the amp/speaker specs published by Logitech. I know it's all marketing fluff, but any of this useful info?
Product Specifications
- Total RMS power: 505 watts RMS
- Satellites: 317 watts RMS (2 x 62 W front, 2 x 62 rear, 69 W center)
- Subwoofer: 188 watts RMS
- Total Peak power: 1010 watts
- Maximum SPL: >115 dB
- Frequency response: 33 Hz — 20 kHz
- Amplifier: Ultra-linear, high-capacity analog
- Signal to noise ratio: >93.5 dB, typical 100
- Input impedance: 8,000 ohms
- Drivers:
- Satellites: 3” polished aluminum phase plug drivers
- Subwoofer: 10” high-excursion ported driver with 6th order bass reflex enclosure
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Owning (or more correctly Used to) that logitech I find on reading Those specs as being Incredible and IMO Komplete BS.
Needing a Cheapo Desktop /puter speaker pair I bought a pair of TC9's
Surprisingly Good and cheap . I have Mark Audios elsewhere and while good they are neither appreciably 'better' nor as good value for $ as the TC9's.
First Speaker build was a Foamboard OB type.. 12" diameter 'petaled' Daisies .
Sound was (is) Excellent ! using a small under desk sub the realism presence was V good.
Only issue was size. Real estate is limited on my Desk and OB's need room to breathe...so after ~8 months of working around their annoying area needs.
I opted for a more Trad Monkey Coffin enclosure.
Sooo..Last week I replaced them week with another Foam Core based build.. a Baby lab / Onken style enclosure 4" wide 8" tall. Fit my desktop great.
Immediate reaction was: Yikes these have a LOT of bass ..arguably too much. Fiddled with the Sub settings and it's Now decently balanced.
BUT and it's a big But... the previous OB setup simply sounded a lot Better.
Cleaner more realistic sounds, a far better impersonation of live music than the current boxes manage ( tend more to Canned Muzak sounds).
I will revert to the OB's... after I get a bigger desk 🙂
Needing a Cheapo Desktop /puter speaker pair I bought a pair of TC9's
Surprisingly Good and cheap . I have Mark Audios elsewhere and while good they are neither appreciably 'better' nor as good value for $ as the TC9's.
First Speaker build was a Foamboard OB type.. 12" diameter 'petaled' Daisies .
Sound was (is) Excellent ! using a small under desk sub the realism presence was V good.
Only issue was size. Real estate is limited on my Desk and OB's need room to breathe...so after ~8 months of working around their annoying area needs.
I opted for a more Trad Monkey Coffin enclosure.
Sooo..Last week I replaced them week with another Foam Core based build.. a Baby lab / Onken style enclosure 4" wide 8" tall. Fit my desktop great.
Immediate reaction was: Yikes these have a LOT of bass ..arguably too much. Fiddled with the Sub settings and it's Now decently balanced.
BUT and it's a big But... the previous OB setup simply sounded a lot Better.
Cleaner more realistic sounds, a far better impersonation of live music than the current boxes manage ( tend more to Canned Muzak sounds).
I will revert to the OB's... after I get a bigger desk 🙂
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I'm not sure the B3S will outdo what you currently have. I'm not aware of any $10 driver that will give you what you're looking for. My recommendation would be either the Woden Baby Lab Red-Eye or a MarkAudio CHP-70 or CHR-70 in a simple bass reflex cabinet. The Red-Eye would be the least expensive of the two. The NS3/Dayton ND90 would be less than $50 for the pair. The cabinets aren't large, so building material wouldn't be very expensive. The MarkAudio drivers would be around $70 for the pair, similar size enclosure to the Red-Eye.
I have both and find the MarkAudio about the best bang for the buck.
Mike
I have both and find the MarkAudio about the best bang for the buck.
Mike
At the risk of sounding like a chatterbox, I'll piggy-back on Bare's comments. If you can add bass support, the TC9 is probably the way to go. In my opinion, it definitely needs help in the lower end. The Nola Brio clones are amazing speakers, but a sub is part of the setup. That being said, you could build the setup for slightly over $100 if you want to go that way. I've built the Nola Brios with the TC9 and with the Dayton PS95 and have used a couple of different subs. They are great speakers, in spite of the low cost.
Need help building open baffle/bass reflex hybrid
I have quite a bit of experience with 3 full range drivers: the Fostex FF85wk, the FF105wk, and Alpair 11ms. Of the 3 drivers, the Alpair 11ms is vastly superior to either Fostex driver. Since you indicated that the baby labs are too big for your desk, you are pretty much directed toward a good 3" driver. I have no experience with the new Alpair 5.3 but I would choose this driver over the Fostex FF85wk. I would bet that the Alpair is quite a bit better. The best small cabinet available for the Alpair 5.3 is probably the uMar-Ken5.2 which was designed for the older Alpair 5.2. Earlier reports on this forum indicate the cabinets for the Alpair 5.2 are completely interchangeable with the Alpair 5.3 driver so this cabinet should work fine. One problem I find with full range drivers is that they have a tendency to sound dry. For this reason I do not recommend using any class AB amplifiers with them because they tend to emphasize the dryness issue. I am currently using an SMSL DA-8s which is arguably one of the finest class D amplifiers available in the world today and I couldn't be happier. Anyone playing with full range drivers should give this amazing amplifier a serious look. I don't no that this amplifier will start to cause people to start discarding their vacuum tubes, but this would be an interesting debate.
Thanks so much for all the input! Not to (further) confuse the issue, but I think I may have solved the desk space issue. I plan to buy 2 of those cheap monitor mounting arms, and use them to hold the speakers above and behind my dual LCD monitors. It'll look a little bit like the hi-fi version of Doc-Oc, but it'll get the speakers off my desk completely, and should give me flexibility to use slightly larger/deeper speakers, without going crazy of course. The only limitation will be weight. The arms are limited to about 14-16lbs each, so I'll have to plan and build accordingly.
That being said, I wonder if it would be worth moving to a 4" driver with a tweeter, or is that just opening a can of worms that's beyond my abilities at this point?
Also, since I'm working within a fairly limited budget, and am planning to use my existing sub/amp for now, is there any way to find the "real" specs on it, particularly the crossover freqs, correct speaker ohms to use, etc..? I'm not really too concerned with raw output numbers. I feel like those will likely be enough for my uses, unless you guys think otherwise? I typically play at rather low volumes during work hours, but sometimes...not. 😉
Two quick clarifications:
@Bare: What's an OB setup?
@several: What are TC9s? I can't find them. I see Peerless TC9s on PE.com, but I don't think those are what you mean...
That being said, I wonder if it would be worth moving to a 4" driver with a tweeter, or is that just opening a can of worms that's beyond my abilities at this point?
Also, since I'm working within a fairly limited budget, and am planning to use my existing sub/amp for now, is there any way to find the "real" specs on it, particularly the crossover freqs, correct speaker ohms to use, etc..? I'm not really too concerned with raw output numbers. I feel like those will likely be enough for my uses, unless you guys think otherwise? I typically play at rather low volumes during work hours, but sometimes...not. 😉
Two quick clarifications:
@Bare: What's an OB setup?
@several: What are TC9s? I can't find them. I see Peerless TC9s on PE.com, but I don't think those are what you mean...